Change of policy

Cantoris said:
But those horses mentioned are no better than the Halford horses mentioned previously or Deauville Vision. Summit Surge and An Tadh won a group 3 each.

Yes, but he has trained them to win over a no. of seasons and to improve. Vincenzo Galilei was no great shakes I don't think that was Lyons fault
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If the only way you can prove yourself is to take a good horse from someone else and do better,
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No that's not what I said. There are different ways to prove yourself but it is difficult for someone to prove that a trainer is ordinary unless you give him a proven one. Otherwise it can always be claimed 'they didn't have the horses'
Getting back to the point of Lyons, he has enough horses bought for reasonably decent money to punch higher than group 2s if you beleive in the law of averages. Hannon may buy the out and out two year old but remember, Lyons has said the Birdcatcher is a key target for him every year.
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I'm pretty sure he would train more grp winners if he was in Britain. He sounds like his own worst enemy if he calls himself a 2yr old trainer and than nominates a race as his prime target that he consistently fails to win !

Lyons 13% runners/winners
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Sheikh said:
Yes, but he has trained them to win over a no. of seasons and to improve. Vincenzo Galilei was no great shakes I don't think that was Lyons fault
So has Halford with Deauville Vision who went from winning a Lincoln to winning Group races. If Vincenzo was not his fault then you need to take Romeo on Fire out too as he was sent by the same owner for the same sort of money.

Sheikh said:
As far as underachiveing is concerned well i don't think anyone can prove it either way until he is given a top horse with proven ability to work with as being expensive doesn't make them good.
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Whether you meant it or not, this is what you said. In order to prove whether a trainer is better than another or underachiving against another they need to receive a good horse from another trainer and prove they can improve it. As I said, Cumani wins hands down so why doesn't everyone move their horses to the master??

Sheikh said:
Lyons 13% runners/winners .
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Nobody ever said he wasn't good at placing his horses which he is.
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If Vincenzo was not his fault then you need to take Romeo on Fire out too as he was sent by the same owner for the same sort of money.
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I don't see the logic of your thinking there.
So has Halford with Deauville Vision who went from winning a Lincoln to winning Group races.
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Deauville went from being rated 89 to 104 on her first run as a 4yr old and has raced within 3 lbs of that mark ever since. Hardly the training pattern of a progressive trainer.
Whether you meant it or not, this is what you said. In order to prove whether a trainer is better than another or underachiving against another they need to receive a good horse from another trainer and prove they can improve it. As I said, Cumani wins hands down so why doesn't everyone move their horses to the master??
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This is what I said.

As far as underachiveing is concerned well i don't think anyone can prove it either way until he is given a top horse with proven ability to work with as being expensive doesn't make them good
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This is what you said I said.

If the only way you can prove yourself is to take a good horse from someone else and do better, then Luca Cumani is the best trainer in the world and we can just finish the conversation now
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There is more than one way to prove yourself but there is only one way to prove a trainer is inferior.

Nobody ever said he wasn't good at placing his horses which he is
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Halford 7%
 
Sheikh said:
I don't see the logic of your thinking there.
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You used Romeo on Fire to prove he can train a horse on and a bunch of others to suggest he does well with inexpensive horses. Then when I mentioned he clearly couldn't do the same for Vincenzo (another expensive purchase from the same owner) that he did for Romeo you said Vincenzo's failure wasn't Lyons fault. But Romeo did well because Lyons is a good trainer. But Vincenzo did badly because because because....oh yes, he had problems.....nothing to do with the trainer. That's fine by me but don't go cherry picking the horses and then fail to appreciate that he gets plenty of opportunities to train nice, expensive horses. He has been given a lot of chances in my opinion and he is stuck in group 3 land like Halford. 7%, 13%, 25% - does it really matter. Who remembers the countless handicappers he trains to win at Dundalk that give him the great strike rate. This is about the Aga giving horses to trainers and he's interested in group races, not strike rates.
 
Cantoris said:
Lyons admits himself he is a two year old trainer who ends up with horses as three year olds. He has spent a lot of money on his horses over the last few years and had a few very expensive ones sent to him and in my opinion, he has underachieved.
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Think you're being a shade harsh here, Cantoris. In terms of sheer volume of horses Lyons and Hannon are hardly on the same scale.

Yes, Lyons did have a few (3-4) expensive purchases for Glenview and fecked it up (consequently losing the owner) but overall he does well with what he has I reckon.
 
Cantoris said:
That's fine by me but don't go cherry picking the horses and then fail to appreciate that he gets plenty of opportunities to train nice, expensive horses.
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Cantoris, you have mentioned two expensive purchases yourself, so to say he has had "plenty" of opportunities is misleading in itself I would suggest.
 
I think Glenview have more problems that Vinicenzo so I wouldn't say Lyons lost them. Leandross was a 70k purchase, Dohasa 50k. they were just two mentioned above. not cheap by any stretch and if memory serves me right, he had a bunch of these horses over the last five years. Remind me how much the two Group 1 winners of Prendagast's cost this year. Kingsfort was around 30k and the filly I thought was around the same. I think Lyons is a good trainer but just can't make that step forward. I think he's a bit like Mark Johnston in that he gets plenty of winners, a few group winners but doesn't do as much with his horses as say Cecil does with a much smaller band of horse.....albeit you can't be Abdullah's breeding.
 
You used Romeo on Fire to prove he can train a horse on and a bunch of others to suggest he does well with inexpensive horses.
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Nope, You said he claimed to specialise in 2yr olds so I gave you examples of older horses he has trained successfully. As for cherrypicking, check his record this year, there is no need to "cherrypick"

Then when I mentioned he clearly couldn't do the same for Vincenzo
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Nope.You can't give a horse more ability than he already has just because
he cost a lot.

He has been given a lot of chances in my opinion and he is stuck in group 3 land like Halford. 7%, 13%, 25% - does it really matter.
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I don't think many would agree with you there when they're looking for a trainer.

Who remembers the countless handicappers he trains to win at Dundalk that give him the great strike rate. This is about the Aga giving horses to trainers and he's interested in group races, not strike rates.
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It's another indicator like everthing else.Training horses of all abilities to win and improve is I'm sure something everyone pays attention to as is training a Grp 2 Royal ascot winner which I'm sure the Aga is interested in not to mention the Sheikh MO
 
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Sheikh said:
I'm sure the Aga is interested in not to mention the Sheikh MO
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Ah, glad you spotted my plant:)

Shall we agree to disagree then? I'm only looking on the forum in between checking out the runners for the beginners chase on Sunday!!
 
Cantoris said:
I think Glenview have more problems that Vinicenzo so I wouldn't say Lyons lost them. Leandross was a 70k purchase, Dohasa 50k. they were just two mentioned above. not cheap by any stretch and if memory serves me right, he had a bunch of these horses over the last five years. Remind me how much the two Group 1 winners of Prendagast's cost this year. Kingsfort was around 30k and the filly I thought was around the same. I think Lyons is a good trainer but just can't make that step forward. I think he's a bit like Mark Johnston in that he gets plenty of winners, a few group winners but doesn't do as much with his horses as say Cecil does with a much smaller band of horse.....albeit you can't be Abdullah's breeding.
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Stephen Harris has run into a few problems but I believe Lyons lost Glenview as an owner before that, considering they spent 900,000 guineas on a Rock Of Gibraltar filly (sent to Henry Cecil - no longer owned by Glenview) amongst other purchases.

Just as a reference point once again, looking at the 2008 crop of yearlings (as I don't have this year's edition of Steve Taplin's excellent publication!), Hannon had yearlings costing 150k, 100k, 110k, 185k, 160k, 140k (x2), 90k (all either Guineas or Euro) as well as his usual band of lower priced horses. I know for a fact Lyons most expensive yearling that year was 100k and I don't suspect last year was any different.

I'm not saying Lyons will be a top trainer (and I'm certainly not saying he already is), merely that it is too early to be dismissing him at this stage of his career.
 
Leandros and Dohasa justified their price tags.

Time will tell if Lyons makes it to the top. I don't know if he will but he might. I think Halford has gone as high as he'll go. I don't know enough about the other two.

Time will tell if we're right or wrong.
 
I have no idea whether Lyons will make it either. You really need to see their operation and know what goes on and more importantly, who trains the horses!! Not always the person stated on the card although I'm not for one minute suggesting Ger doesn't do all the work himself but I know plenty of yards which would fall apart if their no.2 (normally related) left. One tends to be the horseman and the other the talker for the owners. Again, not saying this is what happens in the Lyons yard.

As for the prices paid, I think I would prefer to give Hannon 100k than Lyons. Hannon afterall has mopped up the sales races for the last 100 years and had plenty of group winners. As someone mentioned earlier, you just get a feeling if one trainer is better than another overall without needing the stats to prove or disprove.

And what about the €80k spent on Gleaming Silver. It's not cheap beans he's paying for a 70 rated horse.
 
Lyons has a long way to go before he can be compared to Hannon but I dare say if Lyons had the Doyles buying the same amount of yearlings for him that Hannon has he'd do better than he is currently doing.

Everyone buys duds, can't be helped
 
Cumani is a genius though as mention here earlier, he is master at improving other people's horses, to add to that list mentioned by Cantoris, their Japan Cup winner Alkaased was a cast off from the Stoute yard and Purple Moon is another cast off from the Stoute yard who went on to better things.
 
Crikey this is an old thread Sheikh. And just goes to prove that stats mean nothing when it comes to training the good horses. Halford may have had a 7% strike rate but he can train a decent horse if he gets one. It was just a case of whether he could train a group 1 horse the same as we know some others can.

Deegan had a nice two year old winner last weekend but I'm not up to speed on how his year is going. Any black type winners?
 
Deegan knew Stand to Attention was a cut above before his run which tells me he has his finger on the pulse. Halford has done a good job with Casamento so lets hope we see more 2yos sent next year.
 
Cantoris said:
Crikey this is an old thread Sheikh. And just goes to prove that stats mean nothing when it comes to training the good horses. Halford may have had a 7% strike rate but he can train a decent horse if he gets one. It was just a case of whether he could train a group 1 horse the same as we know some others can.

Deegan had a nice two year old winner last weekend but I'm not up to speed on how his year is going. Any black type winners?
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Lady Springbank won a couple of group 3's for him earlier in the year although she hasn't really progressed over further. Good trainer I think.
 
That one had to win today if Halford was to progress to the next level and the horse did it well. I think I accused him of not knowing what he has some times but he sure knew the deal with Casamento.

Love to know what the story is with Hujaylea, rated 48 at one stage he will now be rated about 110 !! He's won about 150k He won his first race when he was 5 , he's now 7 :blink:

Lady Springbank won the weld park stakes and the 1000 guineas trial for Deegan. Stand to attention will probably get some black type before the end of the year. He got good improvment out of celtic soprano when it was moved to him.
 
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He trains Bobbyscot as well for my Mum's boss and he's done pretty well with that colt although maybe aimed a bit high at times.

He'll be a force in years to come I think along with Marnane. Two of the best young trainers in Ireland imo.
 
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