Changes to end of season - my suggestion

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davidjohnson

At the Start
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Jun 29, 2007
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Got thinking about this and had an idea that is built on what Alan Lee was saying today on ATR. Basically the end of season is a little bit flat and Champions Day doesn't really serve its purpose. My proposal would be taking 3 of the premier tracks, because of the money Ascot will have to be involved I guess but I'd prefer Doncaster, York and Newmarket.

And have colts, fillies and juvenile championships. The colts could be a fortnight before the Arc meeting, the fillies a week before Arc meeting and then juvenile championships either in the current Champions Day or RP Trophy slot.

The colts would have a 1m Group 1 (QEII Stakes) and 10f Group 1 Champion Stakes as their feature races as well as a number of high-grade handicaps or current pattern races as support. There wouldn't be a 12f Group 1 as there is no point in trying to compete with the Arc. It could be possible to run an order of merit series at both distances too, with points earned for places in the Lockinge/Guineas, Queen Anne/SJ Palace and Sussex Stakes. The same would happen at 10f with points awarded for wins in the Prince of Wales/newly created 10f 3yo only G1 at Royal Ascot, Eclipse and Juddmonte International.

No reason why a similar pattern couldn't be followed along the fillies programme but whilst there would be no point in competing with the Prix de L'opera, the Pride Stakes could be upgraded to Group 1 to compliment the Sun Chariot.

The juvenile championship could include a very valuable 0-100 nursery over 7f and the rest of a 7-race card would have Group 1's over 6f, 7f and 8f for each of the colts and fillies.

Split the meetings between Newmarket, Ascot and York and rotate each year which course holds each championship card.
 
Interesting parts to that alright DJ. It is all about the timing though, having another 1m2f Champion too close to the Irish Champion will leave us in the same position.

Like the idea of a Championship day for the two year olds...really like that one.
 
I like the idea in the principle but in practice I reckon you'd see loads of either small fields or no hopers running in Group Ones to try and nick some prize money.

I think it's an International problem and the Irish, French and British authorities need to get around the table. The French won't give any of the Arc weekend up and rightly so but something could be done with the 2 Champion Stakes and moving around the Moulin and QE2.

I would also rather see Sandown in amongst there. Newmarket's Rowley Mile is an absolutely soulless place and I don't know why they don't run the Group Ones on the July Course to be honest.
 
ALso, I dont think any premier racing should really be carried otu at Ascot given the state of the ground over there. Its over watered filth, Newmarket is going the same way, having a bet on the straight course at Ascot is utter madness these days due to watering.
 
I despise Ascot, it's like an overcrowded airport crossed with a Wetherspoons. However, it is our "premier" racecourse and you'd struggle to exclude it as David says.

Don't see any problems with Newmarket's ground, they're one of the best with ground descriptions. The Cambridgeshire bias was a one off.
 
Whats the point? The Order of Merit in jums racing is a complete flop. The racing public do not care about points based championships. I think Champions Day serves it purpose well and is always memorable.
 
Going stick for the wkend meeting jsut gone was 7.7 I think, should our best horses be racing on a going stick of 7.7???

Shouldnt flat racing be race on good to firm ground or even firm ground?? And also if we have the best horses running in these races, surely times should dip below standards and not be over, meeting after meeting?? We are getting to a funny stage where the ground on the flat is too soft and the ground for the jumps is too firm.

As I said before, there is a great thread on betfair ante post forum, under Clerkwatch 2009. All the evidence regarding inconsistent going reading to public, over watering, its all on there. Certain summer jump tracks race on reading over 10.0 yet Posser, Strickets et al will never race on anything over 8.5 these days. This will also have an ever lasting effect on the breed as well.

I hated the way Bell was putting pressure on Posser to water last week. What was that all about?? Watering to suit individual horses?? Funny how Sea The Stars always managed to get his ground as well, that is much more to the Clerks than any pressure for the trainer who did an amazing job.
 
Will said:
I hated the way Bell was putting pressure on Posser to water last week. What was that all about?? Watering to suit individual horses??
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And not only that, but the filly doesn't need soft ground anyway. I think her run in Ireland clouded the trainer's brain or something. Re-watching the race yesterday my first thought was that Fallon rode almost as weird a race on her as he did on Fair Along in the Ces. Was his mission yesterday to cover every blade of grass in order to find the best ground?
 
Make the races longer and put some obstacles in the way....some small, some slightly bigger....that should sort it
 
Whats the point? The Order of Merit in jums racing is a complete flop. The racing public do not care about points based championships. I think Champions Day serves it purpose well and is always memorable.
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I would agree with that, but personally wouldnt be adverse to the idea of a specialist 2 year championship day. However would it draw punters in? Many punters understandably swerve these races for betting purposes and would not be enthused about a day with limited financial involvement. Theres a lot to be said for a good mix of races.
 
The real problem I always feel with Newmarket is the new stand - it totally fucked the place .

The prices to get into Champions day are just too expensive as well . I had a great day on Saturday but the atmosphere I reckon was nothing like the late 90s in the early days of Champions Day before the new stand .

The problem I fear with the Alan lee approach is that it is profoundly defeatist . There is simply no chance that the European Pattern will allow us to move our all singing all dancing end of season to compete with the Arc . Surely the answer is to make it complementary and all singing in that way . On Saturday for example what a plus a big G1 sprint would have been - how about a massive cash injection for the Cesarewitch ( which was a terrific race as ever ) - in which case why bother to go to Melbourne and as suggested before G1 status for the Challenge and Rockfel - with that why bother with buggering the meeting about and merging it with the QEII ?
 
I agree that the course is a problem - it's dire when it's cold and I've been to the last 5 Champions' Days at least, and Sat was by far the coldest! it was nearly dark for a lot of the afternoon. (Friday weather wasn't bad though til it got cold late on). It's mad to charge £40 for flat racing on such a cold day, no matter how good the racing, although there seemed to be no shortage of people dressed for a cocktail party as usual! Not that one saw much of them...

Part of the loss of atphosphere is because for years Greene King used to give free entrance vouchers to all the pubs for miles around, and they stopped that last year. It's made a huge difference to sheer numbers. This year there seemed to be an awful lot of people who never came out of the stand, and there were loads of police about, which made it a bit opressive.

I agree a sprint would be great, esp as I don't think it works having two long-distance races on the card. Now the Jockey Club Cup is relegated to the end of the card (no sponsors to upset!) it seems much diminished - esp if you remember the great races with Persian Punch et al a few years ago. The Pride Stakes is a bit of a nonsense really - it just seems to compete with the Matron, Sun Chariot etc. Do we really need so many top Mares' races? The PR after the Ces was pretty deserted; only real aficionados came out for the Rockfel and the Pride, and almost everyone had gone in, or gone home, by the JCC.

I'm afraid like Sheikh (expressed on the other thread), I don't want to see any programme which encourages the pushing of 2yr olds any more than we have already - in fact I too would like to row back from that, and encourage breeding for sturdiness rather than precocity. A 2yr old Championship would imo only compound the problems we already have with {poss increasing} fagility of the breed.

A generation ago, trainers would include chopped comfrey ("bone-knit") in their feed to strengthen their horses' legs as a matter of course. They'd do masses of boring road work. We have lost so much old wisdom and vets' schools certainly don't teach it!
 
Not at all, Sara. There are plenty of modern youngstock feeds containing elements of comfrey, rose hips, mustard seed and a wide variety of herbal inclusions. Some of the 'old' wisdom - such as putting a heated bar under the tail of a recalcitrant horse - is best consigned to the dustbin of history. Some of it continues to be valid and I assure you that trainee equine vets will certainly cover the subject of horse feeds, since some of the products on today's market are palliative. Breeders and trainers will also - or should also - be well aware of what's optimum for their animals.

As for road work - first, there is the considerable safety issue which is one good reason for doing little, if any. Easy enough to take out a string of 20 when only two or three cars might pass you in an hour. Where, would you suggest, that could be done regularly and safely today? Second, good bone density can be achieved with today's regimes every bit as it was in the past - in fact, I doubt that you'll see anywhere near as many early-onset splints and spavins as you would in years gone by. With horse-walkers and treadmills, trainers can keep horses working all year round in a way in which Flat horses of the past wouldn't be - particularly during the heavy snowfalls prevalent in past decades. Thus there are no longer the irregular spurts of exercise activity, but regular, steady exercise, which veterinary science is now proving to form better density. Veterinary researchers have also shown that comparative bone density studies over some 20 years show that early exercise (not necessarily early racing) has been helping young horses to develop better bone density than their forbears. I did write about this fairly extensively last year on Final Furlong, not that anyone was particularly interested. Thus, the 'old' wisdom of assuming 2 y.o.'s to be too fragile to take much work has been revised. Regular, steady work with 2 y.o.'s is producing the better bone, less prone to hairline fracturing, laying down splints, etc.

The issue of racing 2 y.o.'s lies mostly in its willy-nilly approach - no matter whether a youngster is precocious in mind or body, many owners want the animal to be raced and will - as you know - force their trainer's hand to do so. As most of us know, an 'early type' usually refers to the physical precocity of the animal. Few trainers take into account its psychological readiness, and some would dismiss such a notion out of hand. Thus, many do take to the track with physical success, but don't 'train on' - often a sign that their minds are not coping with the pressure. As I think most of us on here or any other knowledgeable racing forum will attest, there are plenty of what are reported to be sour 3 y.o.'s who are discarded as having 'not trained on'. Horses can be rushed to race when physically immature, equally they can be rushed to race when mentally immature (and some very unfortunate ones when both) - either way, it leaves its mark.
 
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Rubbish - there are still trainers who do plenty of road work. Not that I suppose you'd be too familiar with the training routine of any yard, Sara.

As for your poxy 'old wisdom' - you mean crap like horses eating wet grass die of colic? Get a grip.
 
Sara said:
This year there seemed to be an awful lot of people who never came out of the stand, and there were loads of police about, which made it a bit opressive.
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They have plenty of justification for being there, to be fair.
 
Ardross said:
On Saturday for example what a plus a big G1 sprint would have been - how about a massive cash injection for the Cesarewitch ( which was a terrific race as ever ) - in which case why bother to go to Melbourne and as suggested before G1 status for the Challenge and Rockfel
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The Challenge should deffo be a Group 1, it's ridiculous that sprintets get so well catered for (even though none of them have been Group 1 standard this year) and 7f animals get the bums rush.
Good idea for the Ces as well. A far more interesting race than the Aussie one imo.
 
Biggest problem with the upgrading the Challenge to Group 1 might be to convince the Pattern Committee that it won't affect the Foret. They'd also need to double the prize money.
 
Interesting ideas, DJ.

I'd personally be against a Cheltenham/BC style meeting (as much as I enjoy both of those events) on the Flat.

With regards to the 2yo's, is there really anything more that could be done to attract the top horses that the Middle Park/Dewhurst/RP Trophy doesn't already do?

Certainly more room for work on the fillies side I reckon. If the Rockfel was upgraded to Group 1, could the Oh So Sharp also be upgraded to Group 2 and be used as a trial/stepping stone in the same way the Debutante/Moyglare pattern works in Ireland? I suppose the obvious issue is that that might take affect the Fillies Mile, but it seems an idea worth looking into.
 
At the min we have the Moyglare, Fillies Mile, Cheveley Park, Marcel Boussac all within a month of each other. I don't think there needs to be any more Group 1 fillies only races (or colts for that matter with the National Stakes, Jean-Luc Lagadere, Dewhurst, Gran Criterium within 6 weeks of one another).

Personally if we're going to mess around with the seasons end it should be to create "Championship" racing ie. a colts and a fillies Championship which the Fillies Mile was originally meant to be. It should be worth considerably more money than the other Group 1's - say £500,000 each so as to set it aside from the regular Group 1's. Quite how this would be achieved I've no idea but Arc weekend is the closest we have to a Championship in Europe and whilst Newmarket is a good meeting it's a bit far for them to be calling it "Champions Day".
 
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