Cheating, Is Big Mac Right ?

[Diamond Geezer]

The Stewards called before them Robert Thornton, the rider of CAPTAIN CEE BEE (IRE), the winner, and enquired into his use of the whip from the last flight. Having heard his evidence and viewed the video recording of the race, the Stewards found the rider guilty of improper riding in the light of Instruction H9 of the Rules of Racing, headed “Use of the Whip”, in that he had used his whip in an incorrect place. They suspended Thornton for 3 days as follows:- Saturday 22nd, Sunday 23rd, and Monday 24th March.

The Stewards called before them Robert Thornton, the rider of KATCHIT (IRE), the winner, and enquired into his use of the whip from the last flight. Having heard his evidence and viewed the video recording of the race, the Stewards found the rider guilty of improper riding in the light of Instruction H9 of the Rules of Racing, headed “Use of the Whip”, in that he had used his whip with excessive frequency, and in an incorrect place. They suspended Thornton for 4 days as follows:- Tuesday 25th, Wednesday 26th, Thursday 27th and Friday 28th March.

The Stewards called before them Tom Scudamore, the rider of OSANA (FR), placed second, and enquired into his use of the whip from the last flight. Having heard his evidence and viewed the video recording of the race, the Stewards found the rider guilty of improper riding in the light of Instruction H9 of the Rules of Racing, headed “Use of the Whip”, in that he had used his whip with excessive frequency. They suspended Scudamore for 2 days as follows:- Saturday 22nd and Sunday 23rd March.


Results of Stewards enquiries yesterday.


Whether or not the stewards were right, they, as the match officials on the day as it were, have taken a decision and issued a penalty similar to a referee awarding a penalty if the laws of the whatever games are broken and where once again of course some think the referee is right and some that the referee is wrong.

Big Mac has called the riders' actions "cheating" i.e seeking to gain an advantage by breaking the rules of racing ( you may not agree with the rules, but they are the rules until such time as they are changed and everyone starts a race knowing what they are) and that in these instances the result should be changed.

Discuss.

 

[jft2005]

its the festival, he was doing everyhtinghe could to get the horse across the line in a tight battle with Binocular. if he hadnt used the whip as frequently, and then lost the race say, he would be heccled for not trying hard enough. theres a very thin line, and getting it right is never going to be easy. no matter who is in the saddle, you, I, Mcririck or a top jock.

 

[Charlie D]

Jocks probably forget how many times they've hit horse already and get carried away during the rush at the end of the race, but they must not forget, they must not get carried away, otherwise it will end up with them having this useful tool taken away


It won't be easy, but Jocks need to get it right and keep within the rules

 

[Sara]

Coming from McCricick who is the first to complain when a jock doesn't thrash his horse hard enough to win, I find that pretty risible. Of course in a Championship race you are going to get jocks really going for it to win - they get carried away in the heat of the moment, and I doubt the horse in the rush of adrenalin feels it that much tbh.

I was watching Choc on Katchit and although he was very 'animated' he didn't seem to me to be hitting the horse hard at all - just making a lot of noise and air with his whip and doing a lot of 'whippy flipping' to rev him up to the max; but I thought "I bet he gets a ban for that"... Choc's not someone who would harm a horse, and esp not Katchit - he was in tears going to the Weighing Room with the emotion he felt for the horse

I'm afraid much of what Big Mac says displays only too clearly the fact he has never ridden a horse

 

[Charlie D]

Trouble is Headstrong, people listen to this man's ramblings for some reason and the more people he gets to listen, the more likely a whip ban will be enforced

 

[Guest_]

Coming from McCricick who is the first to complain when a jock doesn't thrash his horse hard enough to win, I find that pretty risible.

Considering the man wants the whips removed from the sport (at least in terms of striking the horse) I think you must be mistaken.

Of course in a Championship race you are going to get jocks really going for it to win - they get carried away in the heat of the moment, and I doubt the horse in the rush of adrenalin feels it that much tbh.

Weither or not its a Championship race is not the point. When I hear this debate I always think back to Royal Rebel winning the Gold Cup at Ascot by a neck from Vinnie Roe. Johnny Murtagh, he rode Royal Rebel, was given a big ban for over use of the whip. Big Mac comes at this from a different angle, he comes at it from a view point of animal rights and the general view of the public on racing....fair enough, but its not where i am coming from. My point is Johnny Murtagh broke the rules (the whip rules), Pat Smullen (Vinnie Roes ride) did not....given the short margin of victory I think there is every chance that by breaking the rules Muragh won the race. By Smullen keeping to the rules he lost it. There has to be something wrong there.

As an aside Choc Thornton was given part of his ban because he hit Captain Cee Bee in the wrong area i.e the ribs. Absolutely not excuse for that.

 

[Colin Phillips]

It seems Choc gave an excuse for this, Gal.

He held his hands up and accepted that he hit the Captain in the wrong place, but he felt the horse coming back to him and he couldn't reach far enough back to hit him on the backside.

He didn't accept the charge that he had overused the whip on Katchit.

 

[Guest_]

He may have an arguement for Katchit...but his "excuse" was more a reason. There is no excuse for hitting a horse on the ribs....horse coming back on him or not.

 

[Colin Phillips]

I wasn't defending, Gal, just reporting!

 

[an capall]

'whippy flipping'

Headstrong, I have no experience of this term. Please elaborate.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Originally posted by an capall@Mar 12 2008, 07:57 PM

'whippy flipping'

Headstrong, I have no experience of this term. Please elaborate.

You haven't lived, An norty

The whip issue has done the rounds before.

I'm all in favour of disqualifying the horse if the rider breaks the rules.

 

[Sara]

It's an incredibly difficult thing to get right in the heat of a Grade 1 finish though, with everything which is hinging on the outcome.

Agreed there are situations when it's obvious that a jock has overdone it and the horse has felt it, but I don't feel yesterday was one of them in either race. I'm always much more angry when I see jocks raising their whips above their shoulders - which they do often, esp the bad jocks, with no reprisals. Ditto hitting a horse which no longer has any chance, which you see every day.

I'd forgotten McC was so anti-whip - doesn't make any sense to me, given he's so pro-punter! He doesn't seem to understand that a lot of whip use is barely touching the horse, and quite a bit more isn't touching it at all - it's 'flicking' if you like, to make a noise behind the horse's ears and sightline

 

[Honest Tom]

If whips didn't exist they'd have to invent them as otherwise there would be no result. Saddles should be optional equipment as well to make it easier for jockeys to do their job.

 

[Dante]

Racing would be a laughing stock if horses were disqualified for minor misuse of the whip, punters want to bet on the one that gets past the jamstick first not what some faceless stewards decide might or might not have won with or without the whip, the less they decide the better.
Can you imagine the farce? Punjabi is the winner of the Champion Hurdle as Katchit and Osana have been disqualified. No one would bet on the sport.

 

[Epona]

Originally posted by Headstrong@Mar 12 2008, 09:09 PM
Agreed there are situations when it's obvious that a jock has overdone it and the horse has felt it, but I don't feel yesterday was one of them in either race. I'm always much more angry when I see jocks raising their whips above their shoulders - which they do often, esp the bad jocks, with no reprisals. Ditto hitting a horse which no longer has any chance, which you see every day.

I agree.

I'm pro-whip, but using them correctly is a skill that has to be learned. We had a horse running in an apprentice race a few weeks ago that got left in the stalls by 25 lengths - he wasn't even in the picture for two furlongs. Now he is not a particularly difficult ride but you could just about give the kid the benefit of the doubt about why he got left and whose fault it was. What was unforgivable though, was that in the last furlong even though he had no chance of a place, he started whacking the horse round the arse!! This sort of everyday misuse of the whip is what makes me mad from a horse welfare point of view.

 

[Colin Phillips]

It can't be that much of a surprise though when the young jocks have role models who get acclaim for 'ride of the week' by flailing the hide off a horse.

To my mind, jockeyship is about much more than being strong in a finish.

 

[Desperate Dan]

To me it`s totally clear cut. If the Stewards decide the jockey has infringed the rules then the horse should be disqualified. If jockeys knew this would happen then they would be far less likely to infringe the rules, no matter how valuable the race was. Big Mac, on this occasion, is totally right.

 

[tetley]

Originally posted by Headstrong@Mar 12 2008, 10:09 PM
It's an incredibly difficult thing to get right in the heat of a Grade 1 finish though, with everything which is hinging on the outcome.

I don't buy this at all, or are you saying that in your every day run of the mill type race the jockeys don't try hard enough?

 

[Honest Tom]

I agree with Dante on this but don't see the point of having an accross the board aid that assists cheating.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Originally posted by Dante@Mar 13 2008, 08:06 AM
Can you imagine the farce? Punjabi is the winner of the Champion Hurdle as Katchit and Osana have been disqualified. No one would bet on the sport.

This is missing the point entirely, Dante.

As with the Juddmonte a few years back when the first three jockeys were all guilty of riding infringements and people put forward the same scenario as you, it wouldn't work out like that.

Once jockeys knew they'd be disqualified they'd ride differently. There would be different results in some cases, fairly in my view, but in most cases the best horse-jockey combination on the day tends to win.

 

[Bar the Bull]

I think they should have thrown Katchit out and awarded Osana the race.

 

[Dante]

Originally posted by Desert Orchid+Mar 13 2008, 08:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Desert Orchid @ Mar 13 2008, 08:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Dante@Mar 13 2008, 08:06 AM
Can you imagine the farce? Punjabi is the winner of the Champion Hurdle as Katchit and Osana have been disqualified. No one would bet on the sport.

This is missing the point entirely, Dante.

As with the Juddmonte a few years back when the first three jockeys were all guilty of riding infringements and people put forward the same scenario as you, it wouldn't work out like that.

Once jockeys knew they'd be disqualified they'd ride differently. There would be different results in some cases, fairly in my view, but in most cases the best horse-jockey combination on the day tends to win. [/b][/quote]
So if your rules had been in place on Tuesday who would have won the Champion Hurdle if the jockeys rode as they did? or would they never break the rules with the fear of disqualification?

The punishment has to fit the crime, suspension is enough for minor whip infringements.

 

[Guest_]

Originally posted by Dante+Mar 13 2008, 10:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dante @ Mar 13 2008, 10:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Mar 13 2008, 08:46 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Dante

@Mar 13 2008, 08:06 AM
Can you imagine the farce? Punjabi is the winner of the Champion Hurdle as Katchit and Osana have been disqualified. No one would bet on the sport.

This is missing the point entirely, Dante.

As with the Juddmonte a few years back when the first three jockeys were all guilty of riding infringements and people put forward the same scenario as you, it wouldn't work out like that.

Once jockeys knew they'd be disqualified they'd ride differently. There would be different results in some cases, fairly in my view, but in most cases the best horse-jockey combination on the day tends to win.

So if your rules had been in place on Tuesday who would have won the Champion Hurdle if the jockeys rode as they did? or would they never break the rules with the fear of disqualification?

The punishment has to fit the crime, suspension is enough for minor whip infringements. [/b][/quote]
It is not minor if the breaching of the rule results in the winning of a race that he otherwise may not have run e.g Royal Rebel.

 

[Desert Orchid]

Originally posted by Dante+Mar 13 2008, 09:39 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dante @ Mar 13 2008, 09:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Mar 13 2008, 08:46 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Dante

@Mar 13 2008, 08:06 AM
Can you imagine the farce? Punjabi is the winner of the Champion Hurdle as Katchit and Osana have been disqualified. No one would bet on the sport.

This is missing the point entirely, Dante.

As with the Juddmonte a few years back when the first three jockeys were all guilty of riding infringements and people put forward the same scenario as you, it wouldn't work out like that.

Once jockeys knew they'd be disqualified they'd ride differently. There would be different results in some cases, fairly in my view, but in most cases the best horse-jockey combination on the day tends to win.

So if your rules had been in place on Tuesday who would have won the Champion Hurdle if the jockeys rode as they did? or would they never break the rules with the fear of disqualification?

The punishment has to fit the crime, suspension is enough for minor whip infringements. [/b][/quote]
You're still missing the point.

It isn't a question of saying disqualify the first two. It's a question of applying the rules in the longer term.

However, to take Tuesday's race in isolation, if neither had broken the rules the chances are the finishing order would have been the same. How much advantage either gained by the misuse of the whip would probably be minimal. If disqualification were automatic for infringements, only an idiot of a jockey would allow himself to jeopardise the chances of the owners picking up the top prize in hurdling.

 

[Venusian]

I've just heard John Francome talking on radio 5 about the use of the whip, and he was saying that only about 20 of the horses he'd ridden actually seemed to go better for its use.

He thought that if it was banned then after a few weeks no one would notice any difference. Also, the better jockeys would come to the fore.