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Cheltenham Gloom

barjon

barjon

Rookie
Joined
Aug 2, 2020
Messages
4,046
I spent time today re-running Cheltenham trying to find a few more for the notebook. A chastening experience it was, too. There were 187 runners in the Grade 1s and guess how many from the home team…………..42 is all, that’s just over 22%. Only 1 of the 11 runners in the Supreme, 0 (yes, zero) of the 7 in the Brown Advisory, 2 of the 8 in the Queen Mother and the list goes on. There wasn’t a single Grade1 race where the home team fielded even half the runners. It’s one thing not having the talent to win these things, but not to be able to find anything capable of having a go is something else entirely. Is nobody listening to the strident shriek of the alarm bells?
 
Maybe mine is a controversial view, but I don't actually care where the winners are trained.

I thought it was a brilliant Festival and the fact most of the winners - including a fair few I backed - were Irish trained didn't bother me in the slightest.

At least the Irish seem to run their horses - and often against ones from their own yards - as Mullins illustrated yet again winning it with something like his supposed eighth string.
 
Ian_Davies said:
Maybe mine is a controversial view, but I don't actually care where the winners are trained.
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Same here.

I look at the race reference numbers, do my digging, come up with figures then tabulate them. Then I look for the most likely winner. It seldom enters my head whether it's trained here or in Ireland although I'm more likely to assume it's more of a plot if trained over there.
 
I have no problem with where they are trained but I do have a problem with one yard having so much of the power. I suppose I've never seemed to have the same ill feelings towards the Ballydoyle operation as I do the Mullins yard.

I think there had been numerous things that had irked me but I think when I looked at the Triumph and saw wow Willie doesn't have one of the first 3 in the betting, so he sends 11 unexposed 4 years olds. I passed comment on another forum prior to the race that it'd be a brave man to be lumping on either of the favourites will Willie sending that many as at least one of them would probably turn out to be good enough and as it turns out it did. It's certainly not sour grapes from me as I wasn't on either of the first couple in the betting.

It wafted me back to last year when he took the title and sent a host of unexposed 2 and a half milers to the Scottish national and did he have 4 out of the first 6 home or something stupid like that.

I quite like Mullins as a man from what I've seen of him anyway even with all the shenanigans of where his horses are running at the festival each year but I hate to see this domination from a single yard when I think there are so many smaller yards trainers busting a gut day in day out who'd benefit from a few more good horses.
 
The biggest problem for me is not having the time to study both British and Irish form. It’s hard enough with just the British
 
To be totally honest, I get thoroughly bored seeing, constantly, one trainer hoovering up races. Even more, the domination of flippin JP McManus. Great for him to have horses in so many yards and often so many runners in so many races. It must be a mine of info for form and betting purposes but for punters it means negotiating a lot of shenigans in trying to find winners.
I’m not so sure that this is so good for racing when one person can have so much power.

I expect it’s just me being bitter but it jdoesn’t seem right somehow. What I do know is that it’s boring in my opinion.
 
yorick said:
The biggest problem for me is not having the time to study both British and Irish form. It’s hard enough with just the British
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It’s not only not having time for me but I have real difficulty interpreting much of the Irish form. Graded races apart I generally have little idea of the quality of some of the form
 
Yes, they don’t have grades like our 5,4,3,2,.

So every race you have to see the top weight, then work out equivalence against each other, for form evaluation in Eire and here.
 
My best results at Cheltenham were Myretown, Jimmy Du Seuil and Bob Olinger (though I didn't have a proper bet on the latter).

I couldn't care less who trained any of them or where - I'd back a horse trained by a V Putin in somewhere called Moscow if I thought it was a good bet at the odds. 😂
 
Where we get our winners from is not really the point. Like you, I don’t really care where they come from, but I do care about the future of British horse racing and its ability to compete with the best. If we didn’t have quality horses here, who is going to come to compete? Cheltenham may be the place to be at moment, but how long will that last? People are already looking to The DRF and if you fast forward fifty years I wouldn’t be surprised to see Cheltenham as a minor player attracting only second class horses. The complacency of the BHA and Cheltenham itself astounds me.
 
I understand, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that where I get my winners from IS really the point - the ONLY point - to me personally.

Though no saint, at least I have always been brutally honest in admitting that I view everything in life through my own personal prism of self interest.

I have never felt, nor wanted to be, part of any "racing family," nor have I got any interest in cheering on "Team GB" at things like the Cheltenham Festival.

In fact, British racing could collapse altogether, and I would simply switch my focus even more to watching and betting on Irish racing, French racing American racing, whatever.

Because racing is a minority, niche, sport - and not mainstream like football - there has always been this expectation that anyone who is interested in racing will be a passionate ambassador for it to others, but I've never been remotely interested in rising to that unpaid challenge. 😂

In point of fact, despite all the talk of crisis, I've never enjoyed racing more than I do now and things like: the state of the breeding industry, the exodus of some of many quality Flat horses to Hong Kong, big owners drawing stumps and the dominance of the Irish at the Cheltenham Festival don't affect me, hence don't bother me, one bit.

I honestly can't remember a Cheltenham Festival I've enjoyed more than the one we've just had. 😊

But that's just me.
 
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Get all that, Ian. What I meant was that it wasn’t the point of the thread. That point is the decline of British horse racing and it’s that which makes me sad and angry that no-one holding the reins seems that bothered. Another sign of the decline is the number of British owners who have their horses with Mullins et al rather than at home.
 
Apologies, in that case my comments kinda hijacked the thread and that wasn't my intention.

You are, I'd say, absolutely right - British racing is in decline at all levels - lousy prize money at the bottom and can't keep the decent prize money at the top in this country.

But the things that make other countries strong there is no appetite for here (including from me tbh) so I don't see it changing any time soon.
 
I don't recall any such outcries in the 80's and 90's when Ireland couldn't buy a winner for love nor money. Blaming Mullins and JP is simplistic and is part of the reason why British NH racing is in decline, sort out their own house first. Dan Skelton, who I detest btw, learnt his lesson. I remember him crying about Mullins hoovering up soft Grade Ones in Ireland until he realised he was talking through his hat, When that penny dropped he looked at himself and his operation and has improved beyond all recognition since. Apart from this paid for interviews nonsense of course but a leopard never changes its spots!!

It's a very observation to say that the sheer volume of top horses in Ireland is greater rather than to look at the reasons. The amount of shite racing in the UK is a massive problem and as a result you have crap prizemoney and its just far too easy for the top horses to avoid each other. The racing programme needs binning and start again.

Irelands economic growth and the ability to hold on to there best horses is definitely a factor but doesn't come close to explaining the shift in power. Two minor things that have always amazed me is firstly the reluctance of British trainers to send their horses to Ireland which smacks of an unfounded arrogance and secondly the apparent disdain a number of British trainers have for bumpers. Mullins, Elliot and De Bromhead have always run their best horses in bumpers
 
Beef or Salmon said:
I don't recall any such outcries in the 80's and 90's when Ireland couldn't buy a winner for love nor money. Blaming Mullins and JP is simplistic and is part of the reason why British NH racing is in decline, sort out their own house first. Dan Skelton, who I detest btw, learnt his lesson. I remember him crying about Mullins hoovering up soft Grade Ones in Ireland until he realised he was talking through his hat, When that penny dropped he looked at himself and his operation and has improved beyond all recognition since. Apart from this paid for interviews nonsense of course but a leopard never changes its spots!!

It's a very observation to say that the sheer volume of top horses in Ireland is greater rather than to look at the reasons. The amount of shite racing in the UK is a massive problem and as a result you have crap prizemoney and its just far too easy for the top horses to avoid each other. The racing programme needs binning and start again.

Irelands economic growth and the ability to hold on to there best horses is definitely a factor but doesn't come close to explaining the shift in power. Two minor things that have always amazed me is firstly the reluctance of British trainers to send their horses to Ireland which smacks of an unfounded arrogance and secondly the apparent disdain a number of British trainers have for bumpers. Mullins, Elliot and De Bromhead have always run their best horses in bumpers
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This 👍
 
Beef or Salmon said:
I don't recall any such outcries in the 80's and 90's when Ireland couldn't buy a winner for love nor money. Blaming Mullins and JP is simplistic and is part of the reason why British NH racing is in decline, sort out their own house first. Dan Skelton, who I detest btw, learnt his lesson. I remember him crying about Mullins hoovering up soft Grade Ones in Ireland until he realised he was talking through his hat, When that penny dropped he looked at himself and his operation and has improved beyond all recognition since. Apart from this paid for interviews nonsense of course but a leopard never changes its spots!!

It's a very observation to say that the sheer volume of top horses in Ireland is greater rather than to look at the reasons. The amount of shite racing in the UK is a massive problem and as a result you have crap prizemoney and its just far too easy for the top horses to avoid each other. The racing programme needs binning and start again.

Irelands economic growth and the ability to hold on to there best horses is definitely a factor but doesn't come close to explaining the shift in power. Two minor things that have always amazed me is firstly the reluctance of British trainers to send their horses to Ireland which smacks of an unfounded arrogance and secondly the apparent disdain a number of British trainers have for bumpers. Mullins, Elliot and De Bromhead have always run their best horses in bumpers
Click to expand...
You should post more Beefy
 
I think we should be alarmed at the current situation of National Hunt racing in Britain.

Cheltenham this year was great, with drama, emotion, great horses, some fantastic racing and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I also mostly agree with the comments about not being too concerned about where the horses are trained (in fact I tend to think the Irish horses are underrated before the festival, and provide better betting opportunities). I do however only really have an interest in betting on British Racing (and to a lesser extent Irish Racing).

However, looking forward, the signs for the top end of British NH racing are not good and the direction of travel is for things to get worse, possibly much worse. Over the last few years, the conveyor belt of talent turning up in Bumpers &. Novice hurdles at Cheltenham has overwhelmingly shown the Irish have far superior talent. This follows on to succeeding years where horses come back to win again at the next level. This year, Willie Mullins has gone a step further, and attacked the Triumph Hurdle with 11 horses. The 5 of these bought at auction, mostly ex-flat, averaged about £250,000 each and the others are probably of at least equivalent value given their ownership. Clearly, Willie is a great trainer and with a fantastic network for identifying the best young talent. However, the deep pockets of his numerous wealthy owners mean nearly all of his rivals are unable to compete.

The funding of British racing is very unlikely to improve any time soon, and with the vested interests involved, a Government looking for money and changes in Gambling laws, it will probably decline further. In Ireland their better prize money is bolstered directly by government and tax advantages for the sport in Ireland make it a more attractive home for overseas (including British owners).

Nicky Henderson will be 75 in December and he can’t go on forever (Willie Mullins is 6 years younger, but seems to be building an empire that will still be in place when he retires). Paul Nicholls seems to be having a never ending rebuilding phase, so our main, or maybe soon only, powerful defence against the Irish, would be Dan Skelton. It must also be a much friendlier environment to recruit and retain staff in Ireland, with their access to the EU.

The reason this all matters is that if funding of our racing worsens, prize money reduces, revenues from these major festivals reduces (which in turn means less money going in to the prize money pot) as attendances declining with the reduced British participants at major festivals involved year-on-year. As prize money reduces some owners (and these are a much older demographic already) are likely to give up, which further weakens the sport. I can see a spiral of decline unless urgent action is taken. This won’t come from our government and the BHA doesn’t have the power, or perhaps ingenuity, to drive any meaningful change in the structure of the sport.

For a few years I have been hearing that these things go in cycles and British NH horses will be competitive again soon, but I see know reason why this should happen.

All that said, I’m still optimistic and looking forward to Aintree and next years Cheltenham, which will still be great, already.
 
As a matter of curiosity, can I ask to what extent is racing covered in the general Irish print media? TV? Radio?

I remember as a third-year pupil buying the Scottish Daily Express (wouldn't wipe my arse with it these days) before I got on the bus because it had the single page pullout which lent itself to folding and hiding inside a school jotter.

Which papers even cover racing these days?

ITV racing is the dick in the dyke of British racing. (No prizes for guessing who I think the dick is.)

What's the relationship in Ireland between the bookmakers and the industry? Over here they are bleeding the sport dry.

Is Irish grazing ground and/or feed of a higher quality than in the UK?

Racing in France isn't as popular and meetings sparsely attended but the hoses seem better and the prize money is considerably better. You never hear of French courses having to put on Edith Piaf tribute acts after racing in order to increase income.
 
I used to have The Observer every Sunday until its racing coverage was so miniscule I’d have to go through the sports section a couple of times to find it. They got rid of Eddie the Shoe whose Grand National tops were the stuff of legend. Mike used to get The Telegraph because their sports section was very good but we decided we couldn’t support such a right wing paper.
 


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