Christian Williams

Diamond Geezer

Diamond Geezer

Gone But Not Forgotten
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May 2, 2003
Messages
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Saw the incident at Warwick on TV on Saturday involving the Christian Williams mount which ran out through the wing of the final fence, but didn't realise he had broken his leg.

Nor it seems did the Doctor :what: :what:


From the Daily Mail


Racing officials must today seek answers as to how a jockey with a broken leg came to be passed fit to ride minutes later in one of the weekend's most important races.

The incredible episode occurred at Warwick when jockey Christian Williams took a crashing fall in the opening contest. His mount Allistathebarrista ran out approaching the final fence whilst challenging eventual winner Beat The Boys, smashing through the plastic wing of the obstacle.

Williams was thrown out of the saddle, but was able to walk back to the weighing room where he changed silks and weighed out to take his ride aboard Big Buck's in the Grade 2 Kingmaker Novices' Chase.

However, when Williams was unable to get his swollen foot into the stirrup, the racecourse executive commendably gave connections the opportunity to quickly replace the jockey, and Liam Heard was called up as substitute.

Nick Luck, working for Channel 4 at the track, explained: "I had already agreed with Christian that I could interview him before the race.

"He came out of the weighing room and I asked him if he was okay to ride after the fall and he said 'Yes, the doctor says it's all right'.

"But by the time we had finished the interview he was looking very pale, and when he limped over to get on the horse he couldn't manage it."

British Horseracing Authority guidelines state that every jockey who has a fall must be checked over by the racecourse doctor - primarily for signs of concussion - before they are passed fit to continue riding.

Williams, 23, will miss next month's Cheltenham Festival and doctors have told him that they plan to insert a metal plate to aid the recovery process.

Trainer Evan Williams (no relation), one of the jockey's leading suppliers of rides, said: "He has broken his leg just below the knee - the tibia bone - and is going to have an operation to put a plate in tomorrow.

"It is awful news for him as things were really picking up in the last couple of weeks and he was getting some really nice rides.

"He is one of the fittest jockeys I know and I'm sure he will be itching to get back as quickly as possible but it shows how tough these guys are when they are still trying to get into the saddle even when they have an injury like that.

"Christian said it was a freak accident and seemed very positive. It's a clean, simple break and he'll just need to give it time to heal."

The jockey only returned from a career-threatening injury last April after damaging his shoulder which resulted in him being off the track for seven months.

Williams can at least be thankful he didn't go out to take the ride on Big Buck's as the consequences for his leg, and his career, could have been huge.
 
Re the last sentence, I feel constrained to point out that they might have added
"not to mention for the horse" :suspect:
 
That's grossly unfair Headstrong. He's rightly had his critics in the past, but he's generally been riding very well this season. Somthing to do with maturity and more experience I guess. Surely you have to have some sympathy for him considering the horrific injuries he's recovered from not too long ago and now a broken leg will stop him getting important rides at both Cheltenham and Aintree.
 
Originally posted by Maruco@Feb 12 2008, 09:08 AM
That's grossly unfair Headstrong. He's rightly had his critics in the past, but he's generally been riding very well this season.
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I presumed HS meant it could have been very serious if the jockey's leg break only became apparent during the race, in which case it could have had serious consequences for the horse as well.
 
In which case I owe Headstrong an apology.

Sorry Headstrong I misinterpreted your post and thought you were knocking Christian Williams. You weren't, and for that I unreservedly apologise.
 
Excellent jockey who has had injuries at the wrong times.
Anyone who picks up spares from Nicholls/Pipe must be pretty good.
His interviews make me laugh though, it's like he's so laid back he looks high :laughing:
 
Originally posted by Maruco@Feb 12 2008, 09:08 AM
That's grossly unfair Headstrong. He's rightly had his critics in the past, but he's generally been riding very well this season. Somthing to do with maturity and more experience I guess. Surely you have to have some sympathy for him considering the horrific injuries he's recovered from not too long ago and now a broken leg will stop him getting important rides at both Cheltenham and Aintree.
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I've every sympathy with him Maruco, and what I wrote was no criticism of CW but of the journalist!

A jock will always go out and ride if he can, but I'm sure if he'd realised his leg was broken he would not have risked a round of jumping on any animal let alone one as valuable as Big Buck's, an aspect the journo seemed to have missed :what: A jock needs to be able to control his horse jumping at speed, something difficult to do with a broken tibia - such an injury would seriously unbalance the jockey and therefore the horse

I agree that CW hs been riding very well indeed since his come back, he's had some nice wins for Alan King for example. it's most unfortunate he's sidelined again

PS Sorry Maruco didn't realise you'd apologised already for the misunderstanding :shy:
accepted of course :)
 
Whilst I have sympathy for him, I can't be having all this praise being heaped on him. I would put him in the Joe Tizzard category of former Ditcheat jockeys who never progressed. He is a jockey I would avoid like the plague and I would be very surprised if he ever got a top job. He sits along sides the likes of Dougie Costello and Dominic Elsworth in my opinion. Always liable to mess it up when they are put on a decent animal.
 
Thankyou for the insight your post gives me useful. I now realise I was wrong and Christian Williams should be avoided like the plague and should never be let near a good horse, and neither should Dominic Elsworth or Dougie Costello. I suspect you pointing this out will save me a great deal of money in the future, and I'm most grateful that you have furthered my racing education. Being only just old enough to gamble it's people like you I always turn to for advice.

Please feel free to let me know of any other jockeys you know that are crap, a waste of time, useless, chancers, etc, etc, so I can make sure I never back anything they ride and waste my money. Are there perhaps some trainers I should also avoid. If so, could you tell me which ones. I'm sure there are some dodgy owners I should watch out for too.

Any help along these lines would be appreciated. You know the sort of thing. Just a word here and there. Something like AP should be avoided on Monday's because he doesn't try after a weekend, or Don McCain is rubbish because he trains on a beach, or Robert Ogden couldn't tell the difference between a french horse and a donkey.
 
Whatever Maruco, whatever.

In your world a 9% strike rate from 351 rides yielding a princely £ level stakes profit of -175.37 constitutes the profile of an improving jockey?
 
I can't see how "stats" can tell anything here.
If Ruby rode all those horses for the 9% I doubt there would be a huge difference
CW will ride moderate animals mostly because he is lower profile
 
Christian is a bloody good rider and has balls of steel. he will ride all the bad horses and is always accommodating towards owners and so forth.

Really nice family as well.

Also I don't know why people get on Tizz's back, he rides well and to be honest he rode Ruby to sleep last week at Kempton.

He works for his family in a really nice yard and does ride very well. He may have never been the greatest of pilots whilst at Nicholls' but he was never going to get all the good rides.

I would rather use Joe Tizzard than alot of jockeys, notably Ruby Walsh who if seen closer than 3 from the rear is a minor miracle, baring the odd good thing here and there.
 
Originally posted by useful@Feb 13 2008, 06:41 PM
In your world a 9% strike rate from 351 rides yielding a princely £ level stakes profit of -175.37 constitutes the profile of an improving jockey?
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Those figures have absolutely nothing to do with whether a jockey is improving or not. In most cases they are a reflection of the opportunities a jockey has had to ride potential winning horses. Making judgement on a jockey's ability using strike rates and lsp's from the Post website is naieve which you surely aren't.

Christian Williams strike rate at face value would tell me he is not attached to one of the top yards, he will have to ride plenty of horses with little or no chance to make a living, but despite that has a reasonable strike rate on those horses that have ability or aren't handicapped out of it. Strange how two people can interpret data in two different ways isn't it? Crap jockeys don't win one in ten times they sit on a horse, when the majority of those had no chance of winning whoever was on board.

However, I prefer to make judgement on what I see and what I know, it makes it easier to interpret the data! What I see is a jockey who has improved hugely over the last year or so and is being judged on some of the mistakes he made earlier in his career which is not necessarily the best time to form a hard and fast opinion. I also prefer to take the word of some of the people he has ridden for, and therefore ridden out for who believe he is massively underrated and have seen the improvement first hand in terms of confidence, experience, tactical nouse, and strength.

My last post was probably unnecessarily sarcastic, but I find it tiresome when people constantly come out with statements like horse A will win and jockey B is crap. It's nothing more than opinionated laziness. If you have a strong opinion and you want to convince others they are wrong provide some reasoned and balanced evidence rather than simply provoking the response you got, unless that was your intention in the first place.
 
Opinionated laziness? Suggest you refer back to my lengthy posts about my views on why Sizing Europe is poor value for the Champion Hurdle.

I present statistics which indicated he is on a downward curve. 9% is his lowest strike rate for all of the seasons recorded on the RP site. The RP resource is the best free database in the land - why is it naive to use this information?

Williams became attached to the Sue Smith yard at the beginning of this season - hardly an unsucessful yard. In fact one of the top northern yards in the country operated by one of the top showjumpers the country has ever produced.

To date this season Williams has ridden less winners for her (3/66; 5%) than either Tjade Collier - the stable conditional (12/109; 11%) or Graham Lee - no retainer at all - (3/5; 60%).

I detest losing money on horses, and when I do I analyse what has gone wrong and try to remedy this. I have held an opinion about Williams for some time which is based upon my betting statistics and I believe is borne out by the facts. I therefore exclude him from any selections I make. I also can use my judgement to interpret data.

If Williams was as good as you imply why did Paul Nicholls not offer him the second retainer? Perhaps because his "opinionated laziness" got the better of him and he employed the hapless and useless Sam Thomas instead? Or was it based on Nicholls' years of dealing with and employing top class jockeys, and the fact that Sam Thomas is by far the best English jockey in a generation?

You stated:
"However, I prefer to make judgement on what I see and what I know, it makes it easier to interpret the data!". So in other words, you are opinionated and will interpret data according to what you want to believe. I would love to be your bookmaker!

As for the acknowledgment of the sarcasm in your post (note, not an apology!) it doesn't surprise me that you have taken this approach. You predicted on day 2 of my life here at Talking Horses that I would descend into tirades of abuse and get banned. Unfortunately your prediction has been proven way off the mark, so you resort to rather unsavoury methods in the hope you will wind me up.
 
Christian was second jockey to Paul useful, however he shattered his shoulder and it was a near career finishing injury.

Paul then only employed Sam when Christian was injured, Sam done nothing to lose his job when Christian came back and Paul has still given Chris rides, in fact he was meant to ride Big Bucks on Saturday ahead of Liam Heard but got injured.

Also Christian started retained at Sue Smiths as you say but it wasn't working for him and he started riding out for Alan King and Evan Williams and Sue Smith, as well as occasional outings to Pipes.

The retainer was never in place, just an agreement but he couldn't see himself getting better rides whilst at Sues so had to go freelance in some sort.

He has practically been riding as 2nd jockey to Alan King for a while and nearly won a Welsh National.

Its funny how he was considered good enought or ride horses like Noland or Denman over hurdles if as you say Useful he is no good and lazy, trainers don't give lazy jockeys the best rides in the yard !!!!

He left Nicholls because of injury, and as it was a serious one a 2nd jockey was installed. Had he never got injured he would have never lost 2nd jockey at Pauls.
 
I never said he was lazy. The term lazy was used by Maruco with reference to me and my opinions.

You are entitled to believe Williams is good. I don't buy the theory that he did not lose the No 2 job at Ditcheat. He did, and that is fact. If Nicholls seriously rated him I am sure he would have kept the job on ice for him. McManus hasn't given the No 1 job permanently to Fehily just because McCoy is injured.

The fact remains also that he tried to make a go of it with Sue Smith and yet the stable conditional was able to win more races than he could for the yard. I personally though it was a real insult to Tjade Collier letting Williams anywhere near the place. Collier is a decent pilot who deserves his chance as the stable No 1.

He has always had an association with Evan Williams but even at that yard preference was often given to other pilots such as Paul Moloney.

Its all well and good "almost" winning a Welsh National. That hardly makes you a top class jockey. If that theory is to be believed then Peter Buchanan must be top class too. Also Williams arguably should have won on Halcon Generlardais but for making a hash at the last, the most crucial fence in a race!

Of course he has ridden some decent horses for Nicholls, thats indisputable - it was his job as No.2. Problem is he isn't anymore. On very busy days like last Saturday he will come in for spare Ditcheat rides but I would be very surprised if we ever see him given a top job again.
 
In what way has Williams been "practically been riding as 2nd jockey to Alan King for a while"? When is/was "a while"? If you mean this season I can't have that at all - ever heard of Wayne Hutchinson? Alan King appears to have done - he's provided Hutchinson with more than twice the rides that he's given to Williams and I do believe he is 2nd jock to King. Jimmy McCarthy has picked up plenty of rides also and even Gerald Tumelty has ridden more for King this season than Williams has.
 
Originally posted by useful@Feb 14 2008, 06:04 PM
Its all well and good "almost" winning a Welsh National. That hardly makes you a top class jockey. If that theory is to be believed then Peter Buchanan must be top class too.
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I believe he may well be.
 
Dom, Christian went and rode out for King with a view for a more permanent role. You don't give jockeys you dont rate a ride on a strongly fancied horse in the Welsh National do you?
 
Originally posted by chrisbeekracing@Feb 14 2008, 07:51 PM
Dom, Christian went and rode out for King with a view for a more permanent role. You don't give jockeys you dont rate a ride on a strongly fancied horse in the Welsh National do you?
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i believe he may well do
 
I didn't say King doesn't rate him Chris - my point is one of accuracy in that Williams isn't King's second jockey; Wayne Hutchinson is second jockey and Williams picked up roughly the same amount of rides as Jimmy McCarthy in the period that Hutchinson was out injured. Gerald Tumelty has had more than double the rides for King this season that Williams has. That doesn't make Jimmy or Tumelty practically second jockey either!

Since 31st January, Williams has had one ride for King, on 7th February. Hutchinson and Gerald Tumelty have had many rides for King however. So, please explain to me how Christian Williams has "practically been riding as 2nd jockey to Alan King for a while"? He simply hasn't and your statement is not accurate.
 
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