Christian Williams

Originally posted by useful@Feb 14 2008, 02:09 PM
You stated:
"However, I prefer to make judgement on what I see and what I know, it makes it easier to interpret the data!". So in other words, you are opinionated and will interpret data according to what you want to believe. I would love to be your bookmaker!

As for the acknowledgment of the sarcasm in your post (note, not an apology!) it doesn't surprise me that you have taken this approach. You predicted on day 2 of my life here at Talking Horses that I would descend into tirades of abuse and get banned. Unfortunately your prediction has been proven way off the mark, so you resort to rather unsavoury methods in the hope you will wind me up.
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In response to the first paragraph, surely that is simply a balanced approach, rather than just taking numbers and raw data which interpreted without facts can be misleading?

As for the second paragraph, I'm sure I wasn't alone with my concerns, when you were flooding Talkinghorses with any number of one line posts. Almost as many as everyone else put together, and that has absolutely nothing to do with the debate here whatsoever anyway. And actually what you regard as me making a future prediction to what you may do was actually exactly the opposite. It was simply a comment that I hoped you wouldn't do that, not that you would. Unfortunately you seem to have saved the private messaging system to send some abuse, a message I have absolutely no intention of responding to.

Right back to the point in hand, Christian Williams. The question I would ask is whether your opinion of Christian Williams is based on RP stats or on what you see. Do you regard him as weak in a finish, tactically inept, or what. Presumably there are some rides you would point to that you have formed your opinion on. At the moment your stance over his ability is like saying Gordon Brown is a crap Prime Minister because he is five points behind in the polls, rather that saying he is a crap Prime Minister because his policy on Law and Order doesn't work because......., and he handled the latest MP's expenses scandal badly and should have.........., etc. As you point out yourself you have been more than capable of having that level of debate on Sublimity, and as it happens your position is one I agree with. However, if you position was Sublimity is poor value 'just because he is' that would have been a different matter.

This is a message board. Useful is a name you gave yourself when you signed up, as Maruco was when I did. We have no idea who each other are, so how can it be personal. If you believe that to be the case you are wrong. I simply enjoy good racing debate, and prefer to have that rather than a throw away line which kills the debate. I don't regard one post saying Christian Williams is a good jockey, to be followed by Christian Williams is a crap jockey and so are a couple of his mates to be good debate, and regard that type of post as nothing more than opinionated laziness as I said before. Again you have a right to make those comments, just as I have a right to say they are what they are. I respond on subjects that interest me and when I have the time to do so, and as I said before perhaps a sarcastic response wasn't the best way to achieve that. Your response to that is that I should make an apology. Fine by me. If you were seeking an apology you have it. I didn't know you wanted one. But again I thought this was a debate about Christian Williams, not you and I, and I'm conscious that by responding again I'm taking the debate somewhere else again. As I said despite feeling the need to defend myself, I would like to know exactly why you think Christian Williams, Dom Elsworth and Douggie Costello are crap jockeys. Is it just because of their strike rate, or do you have opinions about they're jockeyship?
 
IIRC Christian Williams won the Conditional Jockey's title in his first year, which has to show that he's very talented, esp as he was attached to the yard of Dai Williams, not one of the big yards with lots of good horses.

His career since then has been blighted by a series of severe injuries. I for one hope he gets a good run without injury next year, and a secure source of rides. It's a shame for him that Peter Bowen's horses have been so out of form this year, and I don't think that's down to Christian. It's very difficult when you are constantly coming back from a layoff to develop strength and fitness unless you have a constant source of rides as eg AP does
 
Christian Williams slips out of the saddle too often for my liking. One of the few jockeys that would make me think twice if I fancied a horse.
 
Sometimes its a case of if hes your fav jockey you tend to put up with the bad rides whereas the other people wont.I remember when Davey Russell was riding for Murphy in UK i was a big Russell fan and let them all know in my local bookies in Germany what i thought of him, the prob was they thought he was crap and wouldnt give him the benefit he was due even when he rode a cracker as they had made their minds up about him! Now hes in Ireland again and top jockey over there and i get richer backing him except on his hotpots of course but the blokes in the bookies still say ah its just coz there is no opposition for him! What can he do?
 
Maruco,

I will begin by referring back to my original post.

It was evident that my criticism was linked to his failure to progress at Ditcheat and I compared him to the hapless Tizzard in this respect. My comparison with Costello and Elsworth was linked to my view that when all three are given opportunities on horses with potential that happen to be well backed they get it wrong.

I didn’t simply describe him as “crap” or “useless”. You are putting words into my mouth. I supported my views when challenged by you with data from the RP website. When further challenged by another poster I made subjective comments based upon my interpretation of his association with the Sue Smith yard.

From my second day on the forum you were out to get me. You labelled me as nothing more than an “attention seeker”. You did predict my demise, and I quote “Almost certainly you will push the boundaries too far, go off on a rant and tirade at someone, and get yourself banned”.

In my private message to you I have not made abusive comments to you, I have expanded upon the prediction you made and suggested that it is your intention to try to wind me up so that I do go off on a tirade. I have also suggested you are frustrated because I did not rise to the bait presented by your uncalled for sarcasm. Indeed, by posting a lie that my PM was abusive you have again tried to provoke me and tried to make me look disingenuous to the other forum users.

My views on certain jockeys are based upon my perspective and betting experiences. I then seek to rationalise this with reference to statistical data.

I have, for instance, a real problem with Ruby Walsh’s hold up tactics, especially in Ireland. However, I would never exclude him as part of a betting proposition over in England when riding for Nicholls as more often than not he gets it right.

I have had no evidence to convince me that the three jockeys mentioned can be trusted to get the job done on an “expected” mount.

And finally – referring back to the Halcon Genelardais ride – I would be surprised if King ever puts him up on a fancied horse in a big race again after he got the last totally wrong “bottling” it, and allowed the winner to get back up on the line.
 
Funny, I was under the impression that everything was thrown at Halcon Genelardais during the run-in in the Welsh National and the main reason the winner won the race was because the jockey on board beat the living sh*te out of him...

(yes, I saw the race!)
 
So did I - and that's what I saw as well
No blame to either jockey in the particular circumstances
 
My criticism of Williams inn the Welsh National ladies was based upon "bottling it" at the final fence, and losing vital momentum. A clean jump at the last and he would have won.
 
Halcon is a very fragile horse who doesn't take much racing. He only just gets that trip, esp in the prevailing ground. He was at the end of his tether, and if CW had fired him at the fence he may not have survived. He's had a bad fall at the last before now.

Miko DB on the other hand is a bonny stayer who has been brought along gently and is only now showing his class [see how he won last Saturday ears pricked and going away].

CW did all he could in the Welsh National, and connections still have a horse to play with
You have to ride the horse you've been given, not the one you'd like to have - and CW did just that.
 
i am in total agreement with you .useful. i will not make a remark about c.williams.but about jockey. and i would advice anyone to buy the flat annual of racing research only £72 and well worth the money.in it you will find the best jockey that are riding .just because they are at the top in the championship does not mean to say they are the bes. if you ride the best horses you are expected to have more winners just look at j p spencer rides top horses and wins the most races. but in my mind i dont class him as the best rider and he rode some stinkers last year. if you want to now more buy the book.
 
"CW did all he could in the Welsh National, and connections still have a horse to play with
You have to ride the horse you've been given, not the one you'd like to have - and CW did just that."

Heads, you are guilty of being much too kind, according Christian Williams with much more intelligence than I believe he has.........just my opinion, of course.
 
HS, Halcon Generlardais won the Welsh National the year before. How can you say he just about gets the trip? I think the vast majority of people would look at that race and point to the final fence blunder as having cost him the race.
 
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