Congo

trackside528

At the Start
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Apr 30, 2006
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Things seem to be on the verge of boiling over in the Congo (if they havn't already), with rebel troops seemingly ravaging a major city in the last couple of days.

There are 17,000 UN peacekeepers in the nation at present and, while I accept they have a very difficult job in an ethnic conflict such as this, they seem to be, as usual, wholly ineffective. Not surprisingly, the Security Council doesn't look like it will reinforce the force until December at the earliest.

What do we think is the best way forward? I'm no expert on this by any means but surely we're talking about one of the worst ruled countries on earth, with millions of vulnerable people.

If the "moral" argument is all we have left to justify the Iraqi invasion, how can we stand by and twiddle our thumbs just over 10 years after Rwanda?
 
The "moral" argument is the only one that the government will admit to.

There's plenty more going on in Iraq that is effectively government sponsored but that oru government won't admit to as it's a "local issue" ie. the needless rape, murder and stoning to death of innocent women.
 
The only countries/ blocs capable of doing anything don't have an incentive to do so. Those that might have an incentive of sorts, don't really have the capacity. As you point out morality is something of a flag of convenience that is unfurled when it suits us in the name of justifying a decision, but hastily packed away when we decide that the risk doesn't justify the reward. It has always been applied selectively, and in doing so, it can equally be used as a stick to beat governments with in the name of contradiction and unequal treatment through double standards the moment they fail to invoke it. We can collectively wring our hands in angst and even feign moral indignation but the truth of the matter is that different rules apply for sub-saharan Africa. If you look at potential candidates for the job, you can pretty well dismiss all of them for either of the two reasons of incentive or capacity.

If I'm going to be cruel, I'd have to acknowledge a degree of strategic pragmatism exists in the creation of foreign policy. At times it becomes necessary to bend your morals in order to achieve an objective, but there are points over which you don't go. This point isn't static though and shifts. What I'm saying is that you adopt a position in the knowledge that it is flexible, and that you're prepared to bend it, if you perceive the value to be gained from doing so justifies it. In some cases this might involve applying an acceptably low degree of flexibility in compromising a moral stance if it achieves signifcant results. In others it might require significant bending in which case you increasingly have to assess the amount of compromise that you're being required to make, against the value of the results you'd achieve. A classic risk/ reward equation with morality little more than an embarrassed spectator is expendience dictates. Governments are prepared to entertain both scenarios because of the reward on offer, the only that alters is the risk level.

The issue of morality compromise only really surfaces in policy formulation when the reward is perceived to be low, and especially so if the risk is perceived to be high, which would be the case with the DRC. As they conduct a reward assessment governments can sometimes mask their inaction behind morality and say that they're being asked to compromise too much and they aren't prepared to do so on principle etc. What they're normally saying however, is that the risks involved don't justify the reward, but can't actually declare this, so seek to invoke morality compromise arguments instead. What's unfurling in the DRC, as indeed it has in Zimbabwe, is their nightmare scenario, where they're not necessarily being asked to compromise a moral position, but in reality , they simply can't perceive any justifiable benefit for involvement. In effect morality as a justification for a policy decision is laid naked, as clearly economic, strategic or good old fashioned capitalist/ imperialist self-interest hold primacy.

Is it too callous or simplistic to suggest that despite having plenty of mineral wealth, many central African countries don't have oil? Logistically it wouldn't be easy from a military point of view too, given that you'd have some horrifically stretched and exposed supply lines and would need to get neighbouring 'buy in' to launch from, given that the country is all but landlocked.

We have a classic policy nightmare of high risk/ low reward scenario that isn't asking us to compromise any moral position. The traditional response in such situations is to look for a neutral lightning conductor (normally the UN) as this allows us to abrogate moral responsibility and even engage in a degree of blame transference once it starts going wrong. Perversely, countries can even retain a degree of moral dignity in this process by selectively criticising what is afterall, only a nebulous creation of their own global convenience, which is this case would embody guilt. By performing the role of glorified whipping boy the UN is doing its job as it isn't necessary to isolate any one individual country, and so no harm is done to any trade or political relations imperatives that might otherwise be damaged. What member countries are actually doing de facto, is criticising themselves or admitting their failures, but through this global QANGO they're transferring all their moral contradictions to this amorphic creation of their own collective conscience. By having the UN accepted into the collective global consciousness of the world's population as a separate entity, they can scatter the responsibility amongst hundreds and therefore no one has to take responsibility for a problem that every knows they should be troubled by, but don't want to admit that they don't have any economic reason for getting involved with. In this respect the UN performs the role of the medieval anchoress that allows all the worlds nations to dump their intractable problems or inherently insoluable contradictions of conscience on its doorstep. The other approach of course is to create a fog of confusion, where by everyone more or less agrees to blame each other although this invariably ends up with the UN too.
 
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Let them kill each other.Couldn't give a toss.
Same old Blah Blah must help them.
We must learn to accept that this will happen in Congo, Zaire, Zimbabwe, Sierra leonne, Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia etc etc
Let China peace-keep Africa and donate £10000bn per annum to help them
 
Absolutely, now that the Europeans have made shit of Africa we should walk away becuase it's too big a problem to fix. Harry, Santa is not coming to you this year.

The UN is totally ineffective and as long as that is the case ,supporters of the U.S. 'style' of peace keeping will hold sway in the arguement.
 
Sheikh, isn't there a case to be made that the African's have made shit for themselves, after being freed from the yoke of their various European colonial masters over the course of the last several decades?
 
Yes there is, but you wouldn't just kick the kids out once they're eighteen and tell them they're on there own, no matter how unruly they are..
 
That's right it's our fault for ever...and ever

Big fence around Africa and let them get on with it;)
 
I disagree, Sheikh. I don't see why an ex-colonial power should cary any further responsibility for a nation, once it has achieved indepenedence. The suggestion that said colonial powers should treat said nations like errant children, and feel compelled to step-in whenever there is a problem, goes completely against the grain of 'independence' anyway.

I find that I have a somewhat unpalatable (for me) take on situations such as this.

It's my honest belief that tribalism and democracy do not mix, and in too many African countries, it is the 'tribe' - whether it be an actual tribe, or alliance to ZanuPF/ANC/whatever - which comes first. Democracy, in it's true nature, is virtually impossible under such circumstances.

It might sound moderately racist (though hopefully not), but large parts of the African continent were better off under white rule - and undisputably so. That's certainly the case with Rhodesia/Zimbabwe (though granted not South Africa!). Sometimes, getting what you wish for, isn't always everything you hoped or imagined.

I can only hope that Zimbabwe's MDC and other parties like them, start to prevail on the dark continent, but I do have my doubts, I must confess.
 
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Congo has been independent for 40 years. Its complete stupidity to claim that their problems are still down to belgium.

Yes there is, but you wouldn't just kick the kids out once they're eighteen and tell them they're on there own, no matter how unruly they are

Oh didnt the kids decide to leave home then?

One african state after another is a complete disaster. I agree with grasshopper. Sadly thats true

Its garbgae to say its all down to the boundaries put in by the europeans. May i just mention Czechoslovakia? Countries can disengage. How many czechs or slovaks got their children to kill their parents whilst doing so?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/State-Africa-History-Fifty-Independence/dp/0743232216

This is a riveting book on the subject.; Completely dispassionate and wriiten from a slightly liberal stance. And it is completely damning. Quite frankly the incompetence and stupidity of so many african administrations beggars belief.
 
Sheikh, isn't there a case to be made that the African's have made shit for themselves, after being freed from the yoke of their various European colonial masters over the course of the last several decades?

Agree. Wasnt much of Asia under colonial rule too? Lets compare the subsequent progress....
 
And who has been "propping up" the primitive Mugabe?

Which states have made hand wringing excuses for his lunatic administration and retarded economic policies?
 
It's my honest belief that tribalism and democracy do not mix, and in too many African countries, it is the 'tribe'

Arent there tribes in India? In european states too? Right across asia? How many different "tribes" are there in the USA? A "tribe" i simply a grouping isnt it

Of course it can work but the mindset has to be right. Across africa there have beenm states where tribalism hasnt been quite the issue that has been supposed. What has let most states down is the lack of respect for the instruments of democracy, corruption and greed. There appears to be a continuing lack of foresight (Mandela apart) and will

The west certainly havent played every card right but the tired old left cliche of blaming ALL africas failings on the west is laughable

China's continuning role should be looked at too. Sudan being a disgraceful example. I think they are involved in the Congo too. Also worth remembering that muslim states continually blocked UN action against the genocide in Sudan
 
It's my honest belief that tribalism and democracy do not mix, and in too many African countries, it is the 'tribe' - whether it be an actual tribe, or alliance to ZanuPF/ANC/whatever

Not sure you could have found a worst example on the continent if you tried there Grassy. The ANC is marked out principaly because it isn't tribal, and proudly calls itself a 'broad church' which has historically drawn support from all sections of society (including whites such as Huddlestone and Goldberg). What I fear you may have been seduced into remembering is the BBC constantly refered to the possibility of disintegration along tribal lines whilst apartheid was dying and there were indeed many clashes between various factions. This was a naughty piece of jounalism though, and it was notable that it was London based commentators that were making it rather than Fergal Keene et al who were on the ground and understood that the ANC was essentially allied to a political philosophy, rather than a tribal loyalty. The principal protagonists were the curiously entitled, and blatant political oxymoron, the 'Inkatha freedom party', who had their power base in Natal and were essentially loyal to the Zulu nation. You might equally argue that the AWB were also tribal in nature, although their neo nazi symbols might allow them a little bit of a claim to be have been political. Today South Africa officially recognises 11 separate languages all of which are accorded equal status, although in reality English, Afrikaans and Xhosa dominate, there are pockets where Zulu, Sesotho, or Tswana is spoken, but this is equvilant to things like Welsh or Gaelic
 
And who has been "propping up" the primitive Mugabe?

Which states have made hand wringing excuses for his lunatic administration and retarded economic policies?


I don't know, who is it this week? China? Or are they too busy keeping Sudan fucked?

Maybe we (and by 'we' I mean the international community) could leave them alone when they go to shit if we had left them alone to make their mistakes in the first place. But we didn't, so we don't get to turn a blind eye now.
 
Well try following the news then Gareth. Its pretty obvious to anyone who has, that tthe continuing support from the South african leader and other surrounding states has prolonged Mugabes power. The sophistication of their thinking went no further than "hes one of us"
 
We didnt leave the asian states "alone" eitehr. Whats happened there? Does Vietnam still go around blaming the US for its troubles? A confict far more recent than most african independences. Does Indonesia still moan about the Dutch? Is Singapore struggling? India?
 
Not sure you could have found a worst example on the continent if you tried there Grassy. The ANC is marked out principaly because it isn't tribal, and proudly calls itself a 'broad church' which has historically drawn support from all sections of society (including whites such as Huddlestone and Goldberg). What I fear you may have been seduced into remembering is the BBC constantly refered to the possibility of disintegration along tribal lines whilst apartheid was dying and there were indeed many clashes between various factions. This was a naughty piece of jounalism though, and it was notable that it was London based commentators that were making it rather than Fergal Keene et al who were on the ground and understood that the ANC was essentially allied to a political philosophy, rather than a tribal loyalty. The principal protagonists were the curiously entitled, and blatant political oxymoron, the 'Inkatha freedom party', who had their power base in Natal and were essentially loyal to the Zulu nation. You might equally argue that the AWB were also tribal in nature, although their neo nazi symbols might allow them a little bit of a claim to be have been political. Today South Africa officially recognises 11 separate languages all of which are accorded equal status, although in reality English, Afrikaans and Xhosa dominate, there are pockets where Zulu, Sesotho, or Tswana is spoken, but this is equvilant to things like Welsh or Gaelic

Hence why I used the word 'tribe' in inverted commas, Warbler. ;) :cool:

The point I was trying to get across was that, imo, membership of ZanuPF or ANC is 'tribal' in and of itself.

In a true democracy, you (or I) can decide to vote for a party which best reflects our desires at that stage of our lives. Very often we will vote for one party consistently, but this is different to us voting for them exclusively. Our voting selection is essentially transient, and might very possibly change at the next election.

From the (admittedly limited) coverage I see of Africa, the general rule of thumb seems to be this; you are one or the other, and it shall always be thus.

You are either MDC or you are ZanuPF - you will never transit between both.

You are either ANC or you are Inkatha - you will never transit between both.

You are either Hutu or Tutsi - you will never transit between both.

I used the word 'tribe' intentionally, because it's applicable in the literal sense. But for me, it's equally applicable in the other sense i.e. absolute alignment to one 'thing', group or concept.
 
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You are either MDC or you are ZanuPF - you will never transit between both.

You are either ANC or you are Inkatha - you will never transit between both.

You are either Hutu or Tutsi - you will never transit between both.

To take the first as an exampe though, Grassy, their ideologies are so radically different (but similarly static) that it would seem highly implausible for voters to be anything other than "exclusive" to one or the other.

Perhaps therein lies the problem..

Hutu and Tutsi are actually tribal identies rather than political parties if I'm not mistaken, are they not? If this is the case (which I'm not positive it is tbh), there is no way you could transit.
 
This thread has taken off in a direction I hadn't quite foreseen BTW (not that I'm dissapointed or anything- seems to have stimulated some lively debate), but basically I do tend to agree with Grassy in an over-all sense that former colonial powers should not "babysit" countries 40 years after they gained their independence.

That said, if there is even the prospect of another genocide approaching the scale of that which occurred in Rwanda, a sizable force must be sent in IMO.
 
Well try following the news then Gareth. Its pretty obvious to anyone who has, that tthe continuing support from the South african leader and other surrounding states has prolonged Mugabes power.

When you were diligently following the news, you must have missed the bit about which country supplies the Zimbabwean government with most of its arms.

But you've already said you think China's role in Sudan should be looked at, so I guess we agree that the influence of the international community on post-colonial Africa has been anything but benign.

The sophistication of their thinking went no further than "hes one of us"

Pretty much the sophistication of the US's policy when they were helping Mobutu: he's one of us; i.e. not a communist.
 
Arent there tribes in India? In european states too? Right across asia? How many different "tribes" are there in the USA? A "tribe" i simply a grouping isnt it

I think you're wandering into dangerously imposing your own definitions here Clive. Are you suggesting a tribe can only be considered a tribe if it wears a minimal amount of clothing, its people live in huts, and they hunt with spears? Take the zulu tribe for instance, Zulus will proudly tell you there is such a thing as the 'Zulu nation' as indeed many North American Indian tribes regard themselves as Nations etc (The Sioux being the most obvious). Where Nationhood is involved and attaches itself to a people's sense of ethnicity in Europe for instance, it no longer becomes tribalism, but we accord a right wing politically correct label of nationalism. You might cite Czechoslovakia but skip over the peacful transition that followed nationalist emergence in Yugoslavia. We've seen similar in Georgia recently as indeed we have Chechenya. Within months of seceding from the Soviet Union Azerbajan and Armenia were at war and only the involvement of the Russians halted it. The Cambodian catastrophe of the 1970's was an example of Asian tribalism with the imposition of the dominant people of the Khymer, admittedly wrapping themselves round some curious political philosophy based loose on Mao and 'ug the caveman'. If memory seves me right, I think Burma might be dominated by the Bamar people (but wouldn't swear to that). There's no shortage of tribal allegiances governing the ruling elite throughout the middle east too.

In truth I'm not sure the evidence is that clear cut in terms of what constitutes a tribe, or that only certain parts of the world are capable of behaving in a tribal manner. We've had nationalist movements across western Europe that haven't necessarily resulted in offical civil war, but which have most definately involved murders in their names. Surely the critical thing is that all are slightly different in their nature and aspirations and it seems to depend very much on circumstances and no small degree of good fortune. Conditions necessary to take tribal or nationalist disputes to the next stage of armed resistance or outright conflict are probably more prevalent in poorer countries, but that doesn't mean they can't resurface anywhere
 
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I do tend to agree with Grassy in an over-all sense that former colonial powers should not "babysit" countries 40 years after they gained their independence.

It's the powers that have been 'babysitting' them in their post-colonial eras that need to do something...
 
I can't answer for clivex (I'm sure he's delighted to hear! :)) but please see my last post for my definition(s) of 'tribe', Warbler.

It was cross-posted, but hopefully articulates what I mean, and addresses your question adequately.
 
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