Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2006
- Messages
- 16,050
Of course, the whole thing could have been avoided if Um Bongo was still in ready circulation.
Congo
- Thread starter trackside528
- Start date
Yes
The ANC example is more weird and their vote can transit, but Inkatha wouldn't be a potential location for it anymore than the Volksfront or AWB would be. In truth it would be more likely to affiliate with something like the SACP. In the 1950's of course there was a power struggle with the PAC though this was largely political than tribal in nature. Supporters of the ANC would criss - cross within PAC until such time as the ANC established primacy. I'm sure you understand that this wasn't tested at the ballot box as Verwoerd kind ensured that, that data was never allowed to be gathered!!! so the vidence is anecdotal. In the mid 80's the UDF (United Democratic Front - and most definately nothing to do with Ulster) came to prominence. The UDF was essentially an anti-apartheid group based in the Cape, but pragmatism prevailed over tribalism and both groups recognised that they shared the same objectives and the smaller UDF (who were also subjected to the same government assassination and snatch squads, as well as IFP killings) agreed to affiliate with the ANC, as indeed many PAC supporters did decades earlier. The ANC has been pretty unique to date in that it has embraced different groups (hence its broad church boast) with only the blatantly tribal IFP sitting outside of it. At a push Id agree with the critics who point out that they haven't made the inroads into the Indian vote that they might have, with many choosing to vote for the National Party. Pragmatically however, the Indian population is most dominant in Natal and has a big base in Durban. This wouldn't necessarily be ANC territory any way, so its equally possible that this reflects simple electoral strategy. The SACP has kept its own identity, but remains allied to the ANC as a critical friend.
My jolly comrades in Pretoria have privately shared the opinion with me that the biggest threat to the ANC hegenomy is likely to be generational rather than tribal or race related. For the time being that the voting population have memories they can expect to trade on the goodwill built up in the days of the struggle and the Mandela factor. As a new cohort emerges however that isn't of this era, they think there has to be a chance that a black liberal democrat party might emerge as an alternative, based along western lines. It will be interesting to see if this happens as Jacob Zuma might be the kind of devisive catalyst to spark the early emergence of such a party. Such a party in terms of its nature would be closer to the American model (albeit it left leaning rather than right). That is to say a left wing ANC, (Republicans) and a left of centre leaning new party (Democrat)
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Sheikh
At the Start
Having carved up Africa with little regard for tribal borders that existed for 100's if not thousands of years and imposing false borders and false government the idea that everything should be sorted out after 40 years is absurd. I find the general attitude towards former colonies from previous colonisers, arrogant and irresponsible,probably a result of how History is taught.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
Well said - we can't expect the Massai to just live in Kenya because we tell them they're "Kenyan", they've been moving between countries for thousands of years - Kenya, Tanzania and Uganda the main three. The same is true with the various tribes in Northern Africa and West Africa (those involved in the troubles of the 90's) in Rwanda etc.
Ethiopia does not come under that banner (bar the italian occupation for a while). Enough said perhaps
the boundaries were imposed across much of the continent of course but surely in the timeframe we are talking about these countires should have moved on or done some czechoslovakias? they cant keep hanging onto that as an excuse. Belgoum is "two tribes" within artificial borders (some would say) but itys not imploding is it?
ok prosperity counts for a lot and the outside influences are not as benign as they should have been in many cases
one positive is that growth sub shara is taking off and maybe, just maybe, the corner has been turned in many states. We must hope so
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Sheikh
At the Start
Bingo ! it's amazing how well people get on when they're mutually prosperous and mutually reliant on each other for that prosperity.
If the boundaries hadnt been set there would still have been drift of popualtions as development and prosperity moved around. Its hard to envisage that each tribe would be ringfenced into to tidy little monocultural states
the other alternative was that africa didnt develop one iota. was that really going to happen, colonialism or not?
For Gods sake Harry, please don't ever consider a job in international global strategy!!! The very last thing the west needs to be doing is encouraging the Chinese to look beyond their borders!!! People might make a big play about Tibet, but if the truth were told the Chinese have never exhibited anything really by way of expansionist ambition, and only involved themselves in Korea when they perceived an advance on their own territory was a possibility. If they ever did there wouldn't be a country in the region that could stop them
its all very well some coming out with the old left refrain that its western puppet goverments that create this mess and yes, there is definately some truth in thisin certain cases. But not everywhere. Zimbabwe? Amins uganda? Sudan? Somalia?
Sheikh
At the Start
Sophisticated societies have existed in every corner of the World. We'll never know how Africa would have developed on its own but just because it probably wouln't have been along the lines of Western democracy doesn't mean it would have been any worse off.
Which systems have worked as well as western democracies then? Apart from those countries sitting on huge natural assets, aquick look through the gdp list would somewhat indictae that the success is unparralled. Thats just wealth. Aside from that, well...where do we start and stop? Freedom? human rights? so on and so forth
Sheikh
At the Start
You can't impose democracy.