Drop Scotland?

W

Warbler

At the Start
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
8,493
I remember speaking to a Scottish SNP voting friend of mine at the last election, and pointing out that if they were serious about achieving their aims, then they'd field candidates in the South East of England where they're much more likely to encounter an element of natural support once the tax burdens and West Lothian question were played up. We had a laugh about it, as it seemed a slightly perverse suggestion on my part.

Today however, we see a poll that suggests 59% of English want them to leave the union
 
100% agree warbler (theres a first)

Im not nationlistic in any way but the west lothian issue is a disgrace....

Good to see that at long last english opinion is being canvassed
 
Heard this on five live this morning. Is this the first time a higher percentage of English people want Scotland to leave the UK than Scottish people?

Disregarding for a moment the "populist" measures that the SNP are proposing i.e. own currency etc. Can someone with a better grasp of Economics than me answer this:

Realistically, does Scotland have the GDP to maintain its current standard of living without English subsidisation? This is a genuine question, on a purely economic level; I am not trying to stir up ill feeling.
 
Originally posted by betsmate@Nov 26 2006, 10:13 PM
Realistically, does Scotland have the GDP to maintain its current standard of living without English subsidisation? This is a genuine question, on a purely economic level; I am not trying to stir up ill feeling.
Click to expand...
In a nutshell the simple answer is no. That would be exacerbated by even greater emigration - with England being the prime recipient of expat Scots.
 
Swathes of asylum seeking Scots sweeping over the Antonine Wall, hasn't that been going on for years?

Don't get too excited yet though Clive (re 100% agreement being a first) :D . I don't actually have a particularly firm opinion on the subject to be honest, and retain an open mind thus. There are some obvious contradictions and inconsistancies though, and I don't see how these can be easily defended. I wouldn't object to having to pay less tax though. It actually reminds me of a high stakes poker game, with a national bluff being called. I'd be very interested to see how many Scots would actually vote for it, if push came to shove. I do suspect though that had a vote come in the 1980's they'd have won it. Come to think of it, there'd be a few English heading North and claiming asylum I reckon in those dark days :brows:

I suspect what Scotland would look to do would be designated an objective 1 area for European ERDF funding using Ireland as a model, and make up their short fall thus. With the European pot being directed at Eastern Eurpoean countries, and the spectre of Romania and Bulgaria to be absorbed too, they might have missed the boat.
 
Thanks. I suspected as much.

I suppose the problems come when establishing ownership of North Sea Oil etc.
 
My understanding is that the issue of ownership is something of an anathema, but where it comes ashore is critical, as it would then become subject to tariffs etc. I'm pretty certain that North Sea Gas comes ashore at Immingham (Humberside), not sure about oil? In any case its due to run out in 30 years, so they couldn't build a case for independence around something which is so short term in the wider scheme of things. Once any oil revenues dry up, all the other problems that exist will still be there, so its a false economy in many respects. I suspect that the oil fields lie in international waters anyway? and that the ownership is with the drilling companies thus?. Shades of Suez :lol: I think the Scots Nats try and claim the Fortes field? but strictly speaking this might well be adjacent to North Yorkshire. Remember the UK tilts and isn't the upright land mass that we see on the weather map.

I'm sure someone more familiar with the independence debate will pop in soon and tell me otherwise, but I seem to think oil isn't quite as central as you might imagine, as there's very little they can do about it, and territorial claims aren't quite so clear cut in any case
 
Using the port of entry as a point of reference it would seem that the gasfields belong to England and the oilfields to Scotland.

In answer to the question, after watching my country being raped by the English (we didn't fucking vote for them!) for 15 years in the 80's and 90's and not much done to redress the balance since, I would look forward to a split. If nothing else, we'd only have ourselves to blame for any problems that subsequently arose.

I would also laugh like **** as you got a continuous succession of Conservative governments voted in. I believe that if you remove Scotland from the voting figures there is only 1 labour government which would have been elected. Enjoy that. :D

Is Wales allowed to go too?
 
Originally posted by simmo@Nov 27 2006, 09:58 AM
In answer to the question, after watching my country being raped by the English (we didn't fucking vote for them!) for 15 years in the 80's and 90's and not much done to redress the balance since, I would look forward to a split. If nothing else, we'd only have ourselves to blame for any problems that subsequently arose.

I would also laugh like **** as you got a continuous succession of Conservative governments voted in. I believe that if you remove Scotland from the voting figures there is only 1 labour government which would have been elected. Enjoy that. :D

Is Wales allowed to go too?
Click to expand...
Totally agree with that simmo. When Thatcher was in power even a weather forecast pointing to good weather in the south of England used to piss me off.

I vote SNP not because I'm a nationalist but because I'd rather be part of Europe than part of England. I'd rather we signed up for the Euro together but, that's not going to happen because your average Englander thinks they're far to good for Europe. If Scotland went it alone, far from Scots emigrating to England, I could envisage the day (probably after another black Wednesday) when we'd be turning back English boat people at Ardrossan. :lol:
 
Originally posted by Honest Tom@Nov 27 2006, 09:57 AM
I could envisage the day (probably after another black Wednesday) when we'd be turning back English boat people at Ardrossan. :lol:
Click to expand...
Bloody immigrants. :lol:
 
Very hard to find people in england with much positive to say about the current scottish situation. I believe this will rebound badly on Gordon brown , who, is seen with his brooding celtic paranoia and general dourness as being very scottish (in a way which Robin cook wouldnt have been).

Funny how the scots seem to believe that their region was the only one affected by the Thatcher years.
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Nov 27 2006, 11:34 AM
brooding celtic paranoia
Click to expand...

His what?
Click to expand...
he said "brooding celtic paranoia"


I believe that it is much the same as brooding english paranoia, only a bit more celtic. Which is a bit like calling someone a black bastard - there's no real need for the word black in there (which there isn't any of in the union jack apparently).
 
Originally posted by clivex@Nov 27 2006, 12:33 PM
Funny how the scots seem to believe that their region was the only one affected by the Thatcher years.
Click to expand...
I don't think we do clivex (although cold weather payments initially not being given to the Scottish because "they were used to it" and trialling the poll tax on us first didn't help). I think our thinking was more a case of the English got what they voted for.
 
although cold weather payments initially not being given to the Scottish because "they were used to it
Click to expand...

I didnt know that. i am sort of giggling at that one

The other side of that argument of course is that the english get what the scots vote for when labour is in power. Certainly there is feeling that the scots have been well "looked after" by this goverment (transport issues under alistair darling are due some scrutiny) and of course there is the ludicroous (and surely legally challengable, west lothian question)

My view is that you are either fully in...on equal terms ...and accpet you wont always get what you want

Or you are fully out

Another view is that you get your independence and then we invade and seize the oil fields...
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...26/nunion26.xml

Full details of poll are here and interestingly only 28% of english people want scotland to remain part of the union. There are som other interesting results too. I get the feeling that the media (except the Guardian i would imagine) are not going to let this subject go

as for the 28% that should perhaps have been the headline figure

Labour has possibly shot itself in the foot here with its bungled devolution. The resentment caused by the iniquities of that system have filtered through (and frankly the rank anglophobia shown by far too many scots has hardly made them popular).

I was also very suprised to see a poll somehwere which indicated that a very large number of scots agree that the west lothian issue is grossly unfair, Credit to them
 
Scots aren't anglophobic. They just resent English attitudes towards them. Scots get on pretty famously with every other people I can think of because they all see each other as equals.

Thank goodness most forumites have no such attitudes towards Scots.
 
Scots aren't anglophobic
Click to expand...

I didnt say ALL scots

But for you to claim that ALL scots ARENT anglophobic beggars belief.


You seem to have just as much of a ludicrously romanticised view of your nation (or should i say region?) as you do of your football club
 
Clivex, why do you make a habit of personalising issues?

I didn't say all Scots weren't anglophic. I was making a generalisation. You said "far too many Scots" in a way which I interpreted as a generalisation. I was merely answering that point.

A minority of Scots are anglophobic. A minority of any people will feel some kind of ill-will towards any other people.

Yet your suggestion that Scotland is a region rather than a nation is a rather obvious betrayal of just why a small number of Scots resent tiny-mindedness in others.
 
Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Nov 29 2006, 01:18 PM


A minority of Scots are anglophobic. A minority of any people will feel some kind of ill-will towards any other people.
Click to expand...
It isn`t a minority in certain areas on the east coast.
 
Interesting you say that E

Ive always found Glasgow and Edinburgh very friendly. Great cities

But i know people who have worked in aberdeen and spit bile about the place...
 
I have to say, my experience of the English hating Scot, isn't really one of blanket hatred, but rather one of hatred for a 'certain type' of English person, or should that be English attitude?. This was never more clearly defined than in the 1980's, when a Government used the country as a social experimenting ground, and simultaneously abandoned huge tracts of traditional regional policy support, with all the inequalities and injustices that went with it. The distribution between the haves and have nots which already existed, was duly exascerbated with ever greater polarisation. The Scots weren't the only victims of course, and most are well aware that other areas suffered too. Its natural enough however, that when you can see hardship and suffering, and can attach a demonstrable 'cause and effect' explanation as to why this is happening, that you will then develop a hostility to those who you perceive to be responsible for it, those you perceive to be sustaining it, and ultimately those who you perceive to be seemingly re-joicing in it. I don't blame the Scots in a lot of respects.

It wasn't always so though. The Scots had a deep Conservative tradition, and I'm pretty certain they were the majority party in the 1950's North of the border. So it's not necessarily and engrained political hatred. Instead its the result of a series of frequently pernicious, and decidely deliberate actions.
 
Back
Top