Drop Scotland?

I'm not sure that his correcting errors of fact is defending anything?

I agree that "it was a weird economy where Longbridge workers were earning more than doctors" though I'm certain that it's a selective argument and that the average pay for doctors was way higher than thge average pay for the Longbridge workforce.

I still have problems with footballers being paid in one week what two nurses combined earn in a year.
 
I do too, but anyone could be a longbridge worker (maybe alow inteliigence would help..imagine the boredom) but, as much as we dislike them, not many become footballers

longbridge workers were overpaid because of compliant weak goverment and union intimidation. footballers because of market. Market isnt perfect by a long way, but better than the former
 
I know 6 people who lost their jobs when Rover closed the factory in Longbridge. 5 of them had evening jobs to supplement their wages. I can tell you that none of my friends who became unemployed had ever been overpaid while working there.
 
Originally posted by clivex@Nov 30 2006, 10:32 AM
Warbler

Thatcher's approach was brutal, but do you believe that britain would be where it is today if action hadnt been taken?

if the Scots are really voting for the SNP now because of plicies from 25 years ago, then i think they ought to start thinking again, dont you? . Personally i very much doubt that they are. I also wonder how many seriously believe that the region would be better off with heavily subsidised crap industries (especially if they were an independent nation) supposedly propping up the economy

And if they accept that other regions were as badly affected during that time, are they serious thinking that an exception should have been made for them?
I'm not sure that I'd like to say where Britain is today in honesty, and in truth that would constitute a seperate thread in its own right. To put a twist on this though, since we're on a Scottish agenda, with oblique references to regional policy and industrial subsidy, what you might be guilty of saying is that "England and the South East in particular, wouldn't be where it is today, if Scotland and the North hadn't paid the price?". Any hostility and resentment might be seen in that light?

As regards the effect of Thatchers legacy and the voting patterns of the Scots, I think it's entirely probable (though I'm sure we'd have to ask Simmo, Dessie, Grasshopper et al) that people are still voting on what happened 15 to 25 years ago (and wasn't exclusievly Thatcher either - remember the look on the face of her Chancellor John Major when he announced poll tax relief for the Englsih, clearly expecting a cheer and the waving of order papers etc and was met with howls of protest instead? the silly berk just didn't know what he'd said). Returning to the issue a bit.

I think you can look at it as a journey to some extent, as people faced with what was going on put 2 and 2 together and started in effect, a process in their own thoughts. As they gather more and more evidence that serves to under line this sense of conviction their judgement becomes increasingly steadfast. People are always likely to feel a greater a sense of conviction towards something that they have formulated themselves, and with other people around them going through the same process, one person feeds off another, and thus reinforce each other to the point where it becomes something of a movement. Ultimately the media and popular culture will also seek to reinforce and reflect these emerging tensions in any given locality, and it then starts to take on the appearance of being engrained into a culture. In that respect the idea that the Conservative represent the Englsih South and were hell bent on punishing the tribal North and dissident Scotland will have been locked into the national pysche to some extent I think?

I recently asked a Scot (one of those who can't say English without saying B@astard as a reflex action after mentioning the word) who they hated the most, Thatcher or Geoff Hurst. They laughed, but the response was prety instantaneous and quite blood curdling. One was pure evil and made people suffer, indirectly killing thousands etc the other was footballer.
 
"England and the South East in particular, wouldn't be where it is today, if Scotland and the North hadn't paid the price?".

And without Scotland and the north the south east would be even better off still.

In that respect the idea that the Conservative represent the Englsih South and were hell bent on punishing the tribal North and dissident Scotland will have been locked into the national pysche to some extent I think?

just because your paranoid...

The idea that a party is simply vindictively trying to "punish" an area of the country is not worth responding to.

I recently asked a Scot (one of those who can't say English without saying B@astard as a reflex action after mentioning the word

I was talking to an Essex man who couldnt say P@@@ Bstrd when i refered to Muslims. Well i wasnt, but anymore reason why we should listen to that equally racist dickhead?


So what is your alternative then?

Keep industry the way it was in 1979?

All very well knocking it, but need to hear what the options were....
 
Not for the first time Clive I'm surprised, nay disappointed that you seem to think that Government's of what ever colour are seemingly incapable of discriminating in favour of one region over another dependent upon their perceived political loyalities. To think otherwise I'm afraid portrays an idealistic naivety, which I'm sure the world would be a better place for, if we all possessed it. This trait has manifested itself in UK regional policy for decades, but never more so than the Thatcher years as she had a particularly good grasp on the demographic hegemony of the electoral arithematic. In short provided she could supply the artesan C1's and C2's in areas where there was a high enough concentration of seats with a standard of living, then she could shaft other parts of the country to pay for it and sustain her regime, and the Conservatives exhibited little by way in principle in executing this. Though I broadly fall into the 'serves them right camp' this was never more brutally demonstrated I suspect with their treatment of the Notts miners once they'd served their purpose and become expedient.

Although not widely known, the most blatant example of a politically charged decision that immediately comes to mind, has to be the renegaing on a contract for the Royal dockyard of Rosyth for submarine re-fitting, and it's transfer to Devonport, which was starting to suffer the effcets of the peace dividend and the recession of the early 90's. One was a staunch Labour constituency of which Shadow Chancellor Gordon Brown was MP, the other was a political sensitive and increasingly vulnerable seat of Plymouth Sutton amongst others, who the MP was a former Defence Minister, the late and 'colourful' Alan Clark. Such Faustean pacts are almost an intrinsic, (some might say necessary?) by product of democracy. Don't think for one second that when a Government perceives themselves to be in danger of not getting re-elected, that they won't hesitate to take such defensive and discriminatory action to incentivise those who they think might support them, at the expense of those who they perceive won't. Survival is a watch word in politics afterall, and rewarding your supporters, and punishing your opponents go pretty much hand in hand.

If you really think that concpet is so daft you don't regard as worth responding to, then fair enough, I'm more than happy for everybody else to consider it and draw their own opinions.

As regards the nationalised industries, I think its mildly amusing that this forum is frequently clogged up with complaints about the various energy and telecoms companies that privatisation has spawned, many of whom are now foreign owned as well of course, which in itself carries a potentially strategic dividend if an international crisies were ever to arise again in Europe. Similarly, the systematic running down of the coal industry could be seen in the same light, and few I suspect would argue that another agenda wasn't being pursued there? Whether we could ever get that capacity back is debatable now, I just hope we never have to, as the implications for us havign to do so, would probably point to cisis of some sort. Indeed it was the Ridley report of 1978 that prepared the path for this when Thatcher was in opposition, and it was pursued despite the fact we were producing the cheapest deep mined coal in Europe. This was clearly an attempt to punish and remove a perceived threat, and owed little to industrial policy ( which of course Thatcher never had one). The fact that Ridleys family (already wealthy North East property barons and industrialists) made millions personally by selling their mining interests to the then NCB post war is ironic at best. The best example however, (and somewhat fortuitously in last week of all weeks, as the train operating companies announce fare increases double the rate of inflation) has to be the railways.
 
Yes and Labour threw money at the useless and totally unnecessry Ravenscraig too... Theres always been a bit of that, (humber bridge) in marginal constituencies but thats not the same as claiming that there was a simple vindictive policy against certain regions. That would be self defeating and i rekon you would find that Scotland (for instance) was even then receiving more goverment spending than the rest of the UK

Might have been a war against the miners (Pea brained scragill was such an easy target) but odd that she should be fighting on behlf of Heaths loss isnt it? I still feel they went way too far with that though and it was baffling that we were closing pits whilst importing more expensive coal

re Nationalisation. I am talking industries. not utilities. I disagreed with Water and Rail, but both of those came much later than 1979
 
Warbler..

The trouble with your post is that you are believing that the goverment at that time(or any time) were primarily driven by hidden ulterior motives and petty vendetas.

Whether you agree with thatcherism or not, the fact is it was so idealogically driven that micro issues like the ones you have highlighted were not on the radar

They took a view that continued subsidising of any nationlised industry (including coal of course) wqas simply not acceptable. Maybe they even took an envirmonentalists view about this very dirty fuel....

there were many negatives about thatcherism but breaking the overwhelming and abused union power and freeing up industries to market forces was an important legacy

Is anyone (other than dreamers like Benn maybe) asking for the clock to be turned back? Even Red Ken can talk persuasively about the enterprise of London and damningly of the dismal railway unions...

and it could be argued that because we were the first european country to take that route, we succsessfully stole a march on the rest

anyone in business knows very well that Britain is seen as by far the most enterprising major country in europe. i think the stats would bear that out too....
 
Originally posted by clivex@Dec 4 2006, 12:18 PM
anyone in business knows very well that Britain is seen as by far the most enterprising major country in europe. i think the stats would bear that out too....
Absolutely, but you won't get some of the Talking Horses whingeing classes to take note.
 
I wish we could keep the Scottish Olympians and just drop Sean Connery - On his bald head from a great height preferably. If being Scottish was so important to him why doesn`t he live there?
 
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