Eclipse Stakes

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Ardross

Senior Jockey
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I suppose there are grounds for suggesting Roaring Lion night get his revenge on the Derby winner but a disappointing field with no top class 4 year old.

If they get her back to her best it is beginning to look like a cakewalk for Enable this autumn . She would have cleaned up this summer with a fair wind
 
I haven't been keeping the closest of eyes on events over the last couple of months but this was the first race I've had a quick nosy at for a while. I'm not really sure what the grounds are for suggesting Roaring Lion could reverse. Masar looked to beat him fair and square in the Derby to my eye and I think could have beaten him at any point in the race so I can't really see the drop back in trip being an aid.

Are they both slightly vulnerable on faster ground ? Was the Derby form that good with both DXB and Saxon Warrior beaten soundly since ?

If you were going to take them on I'm not sure what you'd do it with tbh ?

I was thinking although they were beaten a long way in the Prince of Wales which looks to have been a a very top class Group 1 that the 3rd and 4th Hawkbill and Cliffs of Moher look of some interest. Cliffs of Moher has looked lazy in the early part of his last couple of races but run to a a fair level. I think he'd be of some interest if maybe they tried him in some sort of headgear to liven him up a bit. I don't know if that would be something they'd consider as you'd think he's dissapointed on a few occasions so if they thought something like that would help whether they'd have already tried it at some point. Hawkbill obviously won this as a 3yo so to some degree the track suits. The Prince of Wales run probably wouldn't be good enough to see him win this again but it was notable that he got very worked up sweated up really badly before the race just looked like a horse who's really not enjoying the game in truth. With that taken into account the run wasn't half bad. It may be worth watching him in the prelims and if he does look a bit more relaxed before hand and the price is right then he might be worth a pop or at least may be good enough to make up the fc with the favourite.

I might have a proper look at the race once the final decs are out later but thought I'd float out some half arsed initial thoughts to start us off.
 
Danny said:
I haven't been keeping the closest of eyes on events over the last couple of months but this was the first race I've had a quick nosy at for a while. I'm not really sure what the grounds are for suggesting Roaring Lion could reverse. Masar looked to beat him fair and square in the Derby to my eye and I think could have beaten him at any point in the race so I can't really see the drop back in trip being an aid.
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The Derby form is not working out and I think Roaring Lion got as close as he did because of his class. He's a 10f horse. I've a small bet on him and took 20s ew about Forest Ranger last week.
 
I think an each way interest on Forest Ranger is a solid bet. I can forgive DXB's run in the Irish Derby on ground basis rather than bringing down the form and it would be no surprise to see a better run from Saxon Warrior.

Masar strikes me as one of those who won't follow up - perhaps winning his share in turn.
 
I was of the opinion prior to the Derby that Roaring Lion would be the one most inconvenienced by the (relatively) late going change and he'd already probably the biggest doubts as to how he'd handle the track.

Despite all that he came there looking a likely enough winner two out but didn't go on from there.

Over 10f on quick ground at Sandown I'll take him to win this and have taken the 18/5.

As an aside, interesting situation with Moore riding in the US instead of the Eclipse. Can't be long before Donnacha is stable number one, at least in Europe.
 
wilsonl said:
I was of the opinion prior to the Derby that Roaring Lion would be the one most inconvenienced by the (relatively) late going change and he'd already probably the biggest doubts as to how he'd handle the track.

Despite all that he came there looking a likely enough winner two out but didn't go on from there.

Over 10f on quick ground at Sandown I'll take him to win this and have taken the 18/5.

As an aside, interesting situation with Moore riding in the US instead of the Eclipse. Can't be long before Donnacha is stable number one, at least in Europe.
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I cannot see Donnacha replacing Moore !
 
No excuses for Roaring Lion over 10f on quick ground!
Certainly wasn't expecting Saxon to run. See how he goes.

Shame Poet's Word is not running.
 
Donnacha is riding on borrowed time unfortunately with his height and weight.
Make him champion and win as many Group 1s as possible this year is most likely the plan.
pity as he is the business.
Saxon must be bomb proof or not have let himself down fully last weekend to say they are going again.
Sholokov nearly brought of the double for Aiden in 02 when pacemaker for High Chaparral and Hawk Wing in both races ,and of course Dickens Hill in 79 won Irish 2000 Gns and Eclipse having been runner up in both Derbies behind Troy so not impossible.
That said it is a risky policy, shades of Cracksman at Royal Ascot after Epsom.
I am still convinced the Epsom Derby form is top form with Masar and Roaring Lion both capable of 125 plus performances.
Happily the interesting one with her two year old form against the colts in a race that three year old fillies rarely run in let alone win.
Ballydoyle must have their chips on Mendellsohn being the best prospect of the Magnier art collection staying in tact for 2019 to say Ryan Moore is US bound methinks.
 
Christ 9 yrs since Sea The Stars won the race holding off Rip.

Superb commentary from Aussie Jim.
 
Euronymous said:
The Derby form is not working out and I think Roaring Lion got as close as he did because of his class. He's a 10f horse.
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Agree with this and - slightly more importantly - so does John Gosden.:).
For all he's been burning up the gallops, and his perceived versatility, Masar strikes me as a 12f horse, and the presence of Hawkbill to lead the charge does little to dispel that notion.
 
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Group 1 for Group 1 horse and there are only 3 Group 1 winners. The AOB pair and Hawkbill.

I backed Hawkbill place (3) only in the POW at Ascot and despite the ground being a tad too fast for him he brought home the bacon at a much better price that Cracksman was to win it.

I intend to use the same logic this time despite the g/f ground. Hawkbill should go off at around 5/4 (Currently 2.14) to be in the FIRST FOUR home

That looks a better bet than taking the risk that the obvious Saxon Warrior gets stuffed by his own stable companion
 
Well done Roaring Lion Backers as there seems like a few of you. Simon Rowlands put him up and I'm sure he hit 4 for 4 today on his ATR thread he's really got off to a flying start on with his blog/tipping section can't say as I'd of expected anything less he's a shrewd dude.

Fair play Tanlic as always proving there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Can't say I was that impressed with the race as a whole.
 
Wouldn't be a great race, with Cliffs Of Moher (gp2, at best) back in 3rd.
If one accepts the first 2 ran close to their optimum trips (odds on, imo) it doesn't do much for the Derby form either, and Masar might be one to take on - when he does return to the racecourse.
 
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It looked a moderate race beforehand (highest OR 121) and with Hawkbill and Cliffs Of Moher still below their best and Forest Ranger never likely to be good enough the better 3yos were left to fight it out pretty much by default. Even the unrated Raymond Tusk (notionally mid-90s) wasn't beaten far.

The most interesting aspect of the race was John Gosden's insistence in the face of Matt Clownman's attempts to derail him that Saxon Warrior was taking an age to pull up and might be a 12f horse after all.
 
I just wonder slightly if SW has gone a little bit weak. He's a big horse with a big frame to fill and we forget that they aren't fully mature until 5 at the earliest. Sometimes horses will have a growing phase and then their energy is put into that instead of racing. And it's almost impossible to spot - sometimes its just the horse sleeping a bit more in its stable or just not quite giving the same spark at home/on a racecourse. I hope they put him away for an Autumn campaign.
 
Did anyone else think John Gosden was being politely critical of Oisin Murphy's ride in the immediate aftermath of the race?
 
Rather than blaming his jockey, I think he was politely implying that Ballydoyle were using team tactics.

Before the race he told his jockey that since his horse settles there was no need to seek cover and risk getting boxed in.

After the race he said this:
“He [Lordan] was riding, quite correctly, to give Saxon Warrior all the room he wanted to come out,” Gosden said. “If you watch the race, it was fascinating tactics, as usual. And it got us in trouble, it got us three wide and it got us further back than we wanted. They were tempting us to drop in but if you drop in, someone then goes and puts you in the box.
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Thanks, Grey. I was referring to his immediate post-race comments when Clownman was being his usual ignorant self and trying to interrupt him. He said something along the lines of Murphy being very cool (more than once) but I picked it up in such a way as to say Murphy got into trouble there and was further back then he was supposed to be but still got out of it.

But what you've quoted maybe clarifies what he meant.
 
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