Envoi Allen

Over 2m. Its the only contest that we will ever get a price for him. It would be a shame if they were never to meet.
 
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Think Shishkin would spit him out over 2m.

Two and a half at Aintree would be fun.
 
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I was all over Shisken last year - the turn of foot at the end of Newbury hugely taking. But EA is a rolls royce of an animal. Completely different to the Samcro hype. It's a shame they wont meet.

I think going to the Dublin Racing Festival is bad news for Chelt chances and happy to see Gordon going elsewhere.
 
he looks alright doesn't he?

geraghty on podcast this week said when he rides at gordo's he gives him a similar feel to sacre.

i do wonder if he's a gold cup horse. clearly has gears and jumps like a slick 2 miler on what we've seen so far.
 
Yeah. He is classier than you'd want for a prospective gold cup candidate. I wouldn't go against him in any race. 15/8 Boyles for the Marsh for Gordon getting him to Cheltenham.
 
Envoi Allen has an uncanny ability to quicken on a sixpence of 2m4f. With no sign of him being stepped up to 3 miles the Gold Cup is a huge no no. 15/8 is worth the gamble as 1 week before the race if no negative news he will be odds on...lay him off take the money and enjoy the race
 
I think over 2 miles, Shiskin would turn him over. No doubt Envoi Allen has a great turn of foot, but he needed every furlong of that 2m 5f in the Ballymore in March and I'd expect hypothetically, Shiskin would do him for toe over 2 miles. Would be some race though!

Another cracking performance from him today, at Fairyhouse, effortless, and that change of speed when Assemble was getting close, was brilliant.
 
If EA needs to win over 2m, EA wins over two miles. I think he beat shiskin in talent and his temperament is unimpeachable. I think he beats abracadabras easily last year.
 
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His best run over 2m technically gives him the beating of Shishkin by about a length, on a line through Abacadabras......though that doesn’t account for the trouble in-running that Shishkin met during the Supreme.

Envoi Allen is a hugely exciting talent, but suggesting he would cast a horse like Shishkin aside over 2m is based on not very much in the way of evidence, and is somewhat disrespectful to the Henderson horse, imo.
 
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HawkWing said:
If EA needs to win over 2m, EA wins over two miles. I think he beat shiskin in talent and his temperament is unimpeachable. I think he beats abracadabras easily last year.
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I really want this race now. Shish on the snaff, on the snaff. ;)

Do you think Envoi will go King George next season?
 
Frankel said:
I really want this race now. Shish on the snaff, on the snaff. ;)

Do you think Envoi will go King George next season?
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Yeah. Its a shame that its odds against that they ever meet. Thing is (as much as i loved how did things at Newbury last year) Shiskin was anything but on the snaff in his one real test. It shows his courage that on his big day, he was at his least impressive and still won. EA doesnt do bad days.
 
HawkWing said:
Shiskin was anything but on the snaff in his one real test. It shows his courage that on his big day, he was at his least impressive and still won.
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You could say exactly the same about Envoi Allen’s run in the Ballymore......assuming we’re treating both horses equally.
 
Grasshopper said:
You could say exactly the same about Envoi Allen’s run in the Ballymore......assuming we’re treating both horses equally.
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Thought that on the day, (that he might get beaten for a stride or two turning in) but how he engaged the turbo to have the race won completely in half a furlong suggests he is simply different gravy.

It was his fifth grade 1 win today - beat the supreme second and champion hurdle third in the Royal Bond last year. Treating both horses equally.
 
HawkWing said:
Yeah. Its a shame that its odds against that they ever meet. Thing is (as much as i loved how did things at Newbury last year) Shiskin was anything but on the snaff in his one real test. It shows his courage that on his big day, he was at his least impressive and still won. EA doesnt do bad days.
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Shishkin had a terrible trip in the Supreme and hated the ground. The fact he picked up the 2nd was a fair effort. Some will quib the 2nd but still.
Think he could be a beast over fences. That said, so will EA.

If they did meet, tactically how do you think it would play out. EA make all?
 
Shishkin interfered with two-out and basically came from an impossible position, HW.

I don’t believe you are treating the two entirely equitably, insofar as a race over 2m is concerned, but each to their own.
 
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I backed Shiskin to win after he won at Newbury and again each way on the day to take advantage of the place terms. Was hoping he would finish fifth at the top of the hill (extra places) given his mistake and having looked not to be travelling down the back, I thought my bets were gone. I was delighted to see Asterion Forlonge do what he did. My thoughts then, and now, is that taking out Captain Guinness and Elixir d'Ainay did more FOR Shiskin than against him. You are free to view it differently. When I saw it was Abracadabras that was in the lead, I knew I was in business.

There are few horses I have seen quicken like he did at Newbury and is a horse of huge potential. However, it was against Shakem up Harry, and excuse me for thinking that waltzing home vs Mick Pastor doesnt tell us anything about his chasing ability.

The question is why was Shiskin in his one proper race in an impossible position?
 
I actually had Shishkin down as more of a Ballymore horse (though had backed him for both novice races) before the Festival, tbh, and was just as pessimistic as you 6f out in the Supreme.

To this day, I still say Newbury was more of a staying peformance than a turn-of-foot 2-mile performance, and the way he clawed back the ground in the Supreme, hasn’t done a whole lot to dent that view. It might be the case that both horses are/were classy enough to win G1s at 2m when actually wanting further.

Crab Shishkin’s Kempton form if you want, but novices have to start somewhere, and only a fool would suggest that Envoi Allen duffing-up the 128-rated hurdler January Jets in his maiden chase, was the extent of his talent or ambition over fences.

You are clearly an Envoi Allen super-fan. That sits OK with me, as I’ve been there before with Hurricane Fly. But, much as I did with the Fly, if you make assertions that are largely based on faith/expectation, and open to some interpretation formwise, it’s only reasonable that you can expect others to take a contrary - or perhaps slightly less rosy - view.

The simple fact is that saying Envoi Allen would beat Shishkin over 2m can’t be backed-up with any objective measure, other than the relative results against Abacadbras.....which makes them close enough as to be arguable either way, depending on which ‘camp’ you happen to be in.

Better we just celebrate both horses, hope they fulfil their full potential, and that they meet one day in a competitve scenario over fences.
 
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Grasshopper said:
I actually had Shishkin down as more of a Ballymore horse (though had backed him for both novice races) before the Festival, tbh, and was just as pessimistic as you 6f out in the Supreme.

To this day, I still say Newbury was more of a staying peformance than a turn-of-foot 2-mile performance, and the way he clawed back the ground in the Supreme, hasn’t done a whole lot to dent that view. It might be the case that both horses are/were classy enough to win G1s at 2m when actually wanting further.

Crab Shishkin’s Kempton form if you want, but novices have to start somewhere, and only a fool would suggest that Envoi Allen duffing-up the 128-rated hurdler January Jets in his maiden chase, was the extent of his talent or ambition over fences.

You are clearly an Envoi Allen super-fan. That sits OK with me, as I’ve been there before with Hurricane Fly. But, much as I did with the Fly, if you make assertions that are largely based on faith/expectation, and open to some interpretation formwise, it’s only reasonable that you can expect others to take a contrary - or perhaps slightly less rosy - view.

The simple fact is that saying Envoi Allen would beat Shishkin over 2m can’t be backed-up with any objective measure, other than the relative results against Abacadbras.....which makes them close enough as to be arguable either way, depending on which ‘camp’ you happen to be in.

Better we just celebrate both horses, hope they fulfil their full potential, and that they meet one day in a competitve scenario over fences.
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Yes. Shiskin actually looked a bit slow in being unable to hold its place in the Supreme. The mistake was relatively minor but he wasn't able to hold his position.

I wouldnt class myself as an EA super-fan or a super-fan of any horse. I have made more money of Shiskin (as if that matters). There is a reason why I didn't start a thread after he beat January Jets. You can pretend that I did, if that helps you somehow. And Shiskin did show at Kempton that he likes jumping fences - but more guessy, exuberant but guessier, than EA - who even when was tested by Jack Kennedy coming to the last today didnt turn a hair. Up to that point, todays race was irrelevant.

But now you are saying that on a fair reading of form Shiskin and EA is that had similar form over 2m, and saying that EA would beat him is not just someone treating Shiskin unfairly. I believe that EA would beat Shiskin over hurdles and if Abracadras was behind Shiskin, rather than getting to the front too soon, he probably would have had last March. I believe he would beat him at 2m over fences and am a little bit sick that I wont get to punt on that.
 
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HW, you were the one who brought-up Shishkin’s maiden chase - not me - so don’t give out with nonsense like “if it helps you” - it will only serve to make you look like a daftie.

And don’t put words in my mouth about their hurdling either.

I’m saying it can be argued either way. There’s only one of us suggesting it’s conclusive and inarguable. It isn’t.
 
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Wasn't Envoi Allen's time today 3 seconds slower than the 117 rated winner of the handicap on the same card today?

Think its quite straightforward over 2 miles Shiskin over 2 1/2 Envoi Allen, that's why they won't ever meet,
 
2 completely different horses imo

1 is a 2 miler the other a 2m 4f plus horse

Shishkin is a faster horse NQAT, you could run Shishkin in a G3 1m 4f on the flat and he'd be competetive

Envoi would not

2 potential Hall of famers
 
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