Envoi Allen

Yes, I agree with the previous two posts. They’ll never meet, but they could dominate their divisions for the next three years.
 
Grasshopper said:
HW, you were the one who brought-up Shishkin’s maiden chase - not me - so don’t give out with nonsense like “if it helps you” - it will only serve to make you look like a daftie.

And don’t put words in my mouth about their hurdling either.

I’m saying it can be argued either way. There’s only one of us suggesting it’s conclusive and inarguable. It isn’t.
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Where did I say it was inarguable or conclusive?

It is my opinion that Envoi Allen would beat Shisken over 2m. A minority opinion. You seemed to take the statement "If Envoi Allen wants to win over 2m, Envoi Allen wins over 2m." to be disrespectful to Shisken and came in riding to his rescue. Good. Others, like Frankel, seemed to take it in the spirit in which it was meant.
 
I don’t have the inclination or the energy to stoke this pointless spat further, and certainly don’t want to fall-out with you again.

My initial statement was that it was a bold call to reckon Envoi would be an odds-on poke against Shishkin over 2m - and I stand by it - but you’re perfectly entitled to hold that opinion.

As you and others have said, it would be a race to savour, should it ever happen.
 
Two lovely horses but to my eye Envoi Allen looks different gravy. Not that he is likely to be dropping in trip but the Ballymore has produced Champion Hurdle winners and some realy top notch 2m hurdlers like Peddlars Cross, The New One not to mention Hardy Eustace and Faugheen. It would be a brave man to oppose him at any trip IMO. Envoi Allen I can see reaching the heights of champions like Sprinter and Kauto but Shishkin I think while very good I can't see him being the next Altior for Nicky Henderson...Time will tell
 
Tanlic said:
Two lovely horses but to my eye Envoi Allen looks different gravy. Not that he is likely to be dropping in trip but the Ballymore has produced Champion Hurdle winners and some realy top notch 2m hurdlers like Peddlars Cross, The New One not to mention Hardy Eustace and Faugheen. It would be a brave man to oppose him at any trip IMO. Envoi Allen I can see reaching the heights of champions like Sprinter and Kauto but Shishkin I think while very good I can't see him being the next Altior for Nicky Henderson...Time will tell
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The New One was Grade 2 level over 2 miles, and doesn’t warrant mentioning in the same sentence as Hardy Eustace, let alone Faugheen.

Let’s move along quickly.
 
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My point was the New One won the Ballymore but spent most of his career over 2 miles. He won over 1 million in prize money

The point being winning the Ballymore doesn't automatically mean its a step towards becoming a staying chaser

My worry with Shishkin is at Cheltenham Davy Russell was canter on Abracadabra and must have been trading at odds on going to the last.

I am just not convinced something wasn't quite right with the Elliot horse as he didn't find what you would have expected from a horse travelling so well

Had he quickened like you thought he was going to I doubt if Shiskin would have gotten near him....
 
Tanlic said:
My point was the New One won the Ballymore but spent most of his career over 2 miles. He won over 1 million in prize money

The point being winning the Ballymore doesn't automatically mean its a step towards becoming a staying chaser

My worry with Shishkin is at Cheltenham Davy Russell was canter on Abracadabra and must have been trading at odds on going to the last.

I am just not convinced something wasn't quite right with the Elliot horse as he didn't find what you would have expected from a horse travelling so well

Had he quickened like you thought he was going to I doubt if Shiskin would have gotten near him....
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The thing b that I need was once shiskin got past abracadabras, abracadabras was coming back to him at the line. Think given the race shiskin won a little cosy but abracadabras would be far far better served having something to aim.at.
 
HawkWing said:
Think given the race shiskin won a little cosy but abracadabras would be far far better served having something to aim.at.
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Tend to agree with this. SR appeared unlucky the last day but not convinced Abra didn't pull himself up.
 
Grasshopper said:
Never won a Grade 1 hurdle at 2 miles, and had enough attempts.
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Excluding CH which is run over 2m plus

Actual 2 mile grade 1's not even a handful and 2 of those were against Buvi and Faugheen...2nd to MTOY and Yanworth:whistle:

You are missing the point. The horse was a very good 2 miler who won the Ballymore
 
Tanlic said:
Excluding CH which is run over 2m plus

Actual 2 mile grade 1's not even a handful and 2 of those were against Buvi and Faugheen...2nd to MTOY and Yanworth:whistle:

You are missing the point. The horse was a very good 2 miler who won the Ballymore
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TNO won twice at G1 level: a Ballymore over 2m5f and an Aintree hurdle over 2m4f.

He failed to win a Grade 1 hurdle at 2m, 2m1f, 2m2f or 2m3f.

He was a essentially a two-and-a-half miler, with enough boot to win G2s, and show high-class form in a strongly-run G1, over shorter.

That’s my view anyway, and I won’t change it, no matter how many free houses you build for me in Thailand. :whistle::lol:

Anyway, it’s ridiculous mentioning this yoke in an Envoi Allen thread - behave yourself.
 
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