EU membership UK referendum

UK voters who believe they should leave the EU

  • YES

    Votes: 10 43.5%

  • NO

    Votes: 13 56.5%
  • Total voters
    23
It's sentiment that rings a kind of bell with me Roddy, as I vividly recall in Diplomat friend of mine trying to stress it to me on a rendezvous in temrinal 3 at CDG.

He was clear that certain countrie sin the world were lookign to a united states of Europe to present a counter balance to America in the world hegenomy. Where as there are other countries/ stroke blocks such as China or a newly emboldened Russia that might mature in time, it was clear that Europe would be the preferred bloc of choice, to prevent the Americans riding rough shod over the globe. He of course was particularly exasperated for the UK for our toadying to Washington. This was November 2003 and I quite vividly remember him saying

I've told you before. There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. We (the UN) got them all. You're all being lied to, and the UK and Blair are pathetic. You actually think you'll get something out of this. You won't. The Americans will have the bloody lot. You'll get a filling station outside of Basra if you're lucky

The obligation we might have to present a bloc challenge to the United States is one thing I couldn't dismiss lightly
 
Well, I think we've been fed the propaganda that the EU represented some sort of allied front 'against' American expansionism, Warbler, because that's all it is. America has pretty much done what America wants. As for the stuff about Iraq - tell us something we don't know!

The EU will never challenge America. It doesn't challenge anyone, anywhere. It was useless if it couldn't even stand up to Bush 'n' Blair about the WMDs when it knew full well there weren't any worth a damn in the first place. Scuds? Are you kidding? The things were mostly bought ex-Vietnam War, they were incredibly old and incredibly awry - although there was the usual hysteria from America about the possibility during the Goof War that they might contain chemical or biological agents in their nosecones when they headed for the Gulf States and Israel. Yeah, as if Iraq had developed anything that far - unless, of course, it had been sold the crap by the ever-obliging European Union's members during an earlier period of free (for all) trading. In fact, some 22 European countries sold weaponry and arms to Iraq up to and, in some cases, during the Gulf War (the real one - its invasion of Kuwait, not that pathetic invasion by Bushanblair).

Nothing is ever as it seems. The EU no more represents a bulwark against American expansionism, bullying, call it what you will, than Iran represents a credible threat to the expansionism of Zion. And where was the EU (apart from a polite cough) when the Israelites built their enormous exclusionist walls, and where are we in relation to 'peace in Gaza' and a reinstatement of a Palestinian homeland (correction: it is not a 'creation' - there was Palestine, then there wasn't. It can't be created, because it existed. It can only be reinstated)? Are we, in or out of the EU, going to stop appeasing Israel's appalling cruelties towards helpless refugees, and its completely out of proportion responses to Hamas? Are we ever going to take tens of thousands of displaced persons, still living in Jordanian refugee camps after 30 years, seriously and humanely? We might, as the country responsible for its being (via the Balfour bloody Treaty) if we weren't forever toadying and kowtowing to one master after another: the EU, America/America, the EU. We have no moral authority left at all.
 
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Good rant about the jews Krizon. how dare they actually respond to an enemy that continually fired upon its civilians and...actually succeed...what sort of goverment is that?

I was wondering where the EU was when 500000 (christians initially targeted) were being butchered in Islamic Sudan.
 
Ah, there you are, clivex. How I've missed you. I'm not ranting about the Jews, if you would like to look again. As was so often the case in the past, you've been so keen to take a cut, you've sailed right past the issue. I was talking about Zionist expansionism. Unlike you, I know that Israelis can be Jewish, Christian, or even atheist, and that not all Israelis are happy with their country's over-response to Hamas's rockets, which, you'll find if you read a lot more about the subject, are born out of the desperation of an ever-increasingly marginalized and dispossessed people. Why don't you check out the hundreds of instances of Israel's flouting of so many Geneva conventions? We haven't the bandwidth to put them all up, but the building of the wall was illegal, the building of thousands of homes in so-called settler camps was illegal, the draining of watercourses was illegal, and the use of phosporous in their bombing of civilians, both the Palestinians and the Lebanese, was and remains illegal.
 
The point is...its ALWAYS Israel isnt it?

The Ken loach syndrome. I would certainly not defend ever aspect of their policy (especially the self defeating settlements) but the country is too clearly an obsession to certain sectors (notably the far left). and one is bound to ask why....

Has Sudan flouted any geneva conventions i wonder? just a tad? Shall we go on?
 
I don't think the EU could ever be a successful to the US because when it comes down to it, the US is one country with one government and the EU is not. Old prejudices run deep in Europe and this is exampled every time a policy decision or directive, which is supposed to be adhered to by every member state, is ignored by one or more because they choose to and other states can't make them tow the collective line to whatever the policy is.
 
Unfortunately Kriz, you couch everything in a quasi military context and have fixated on weaponry. Is there something in your new found conversion to UKIP that you're not sharing with us? Are you secretly stroking a white cat and looking at an aquarium as you type?

A country's power starts from its economic base, I think it was there that the general hypothesis of the barrier comes from. The edifice of the American economy is crumblign every bit as much as ours. They regarded a recent evaluation thta only 55% of their banks were not in danger of collapse as 'good news'. Their multi-nationals are creeking, and staple giants such as Ford, GM and Chrysler are doing an ever more passable impression of performing dogs after tit bits.

It could be that after all this is over, America is no longer the preminent economy of the world, and won't lead the globe in the 21st century, unless of course it resorts to throw its miliatry mite around to reinforce and compensate for its lack of economic success
 
Nonsense warbler. For one thing, the signs are that the western economies are slowly getting back on track. Secondly, whos going to take over "after all this" as the worlds leading economy. china i suppose (wishfulthinking on the left who would no doubt love to see that wonderful state "lead" the world). well, iuts not going great guns there either is it? A few problems i would suggest economically already and political ones bound to follow, if not already. The US is in FAR better shape socially and politically and being the continued magnet for talent that it is, it will remain in pole position for along time to come
 
Their "mutinationals" are far from being all in the same boat a the chaotic car manufacturers. GE? Microsoft? the pharma giants? Walmart? the list goes on. Its ONE sector.

Chinese companies are going bust all over the place.

So ok..its not china then. India? russia? cuba?

come off it
 
clivex said:
Nonsense warbler. For one thing, the signs are that the western economies are slowly getting back on track.
Click to expand...

:blink: I too think hallucinogenic drugs are much under-rated

It was only 6 months ago that good old fashioned state intervention saved the entire economy from going bankrupt. The whole American financial system would have imploded such was each banks exposure to the other. They've been running an unsustainable budget deficit for years, and there's a lot of their large companies outside of the automotive industry (which is always regarded as a barometer of the manufacuring health) struggling. Their aviation industry is only surving on defence contracts. Their steel production because its so heavily protected from competition. Both their coal and oil reserves are running out (hence why they're having to steal other peoples), and that's before you look at the sizeable percentage of their population who are now technically bankrupt.
 
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Clivex, no, it's not always Israel - there's a list a mile long of brutal, oppressive regimes around the world, but most of these are well beyond the remit of the EU's reach! Too many African countries to mention, Burma/Myanmar, North Korea, repressed pockets of Middle and Far Eastern countries - as I say, the list is extensive and affects millions of people. But if countries are signed up, as Israel is, to various Geneva conventions, then they shouldn't be flouting them and getting away with it in the way that Israel has and still does. If the country wasn't the lapdog of the all-powerful USA, its little pet, then no-one would stand for its repeated offences. That's why we won't have Prez Obama inviting us to join him and teach it a stern lesson, that's why there have been round after round of 'peace talks' year upon year, decade upon decade, all signifying nothing. That's why we give £35,000,000 annually in aid to the Palestinian refugees in their disparate camps, instead of telling Israel to get back to its original boundaries, those sanctioned in 1948, give back the land and homes it's stolen, and pull down that ridiculous wall. We give the aid because we know we did the original damage to the Palestinians, even though no-one thought things would pan out so badly as they have done to date. We give the aid to keep them alive, and to assist the Arab governments who help to do so. They didn't want millions of 'foreigners' in their countries, any more than the BNP wants them in this, but the alternative was to let them starve to death at the gates of the cities. Not what the UK wanted on its conscience, so we pay for our guilt. But imagine that we put Israel back in its box, nicely, without bombing it. True, arms dealers would suffer, and its nuclear programme would have to go back on ice, but think how great it would be to have an Israeli state, and a reinstated Palestinian state. The two peoples would get along as they used to do, we could save billions in aid over the years and perhaps even use the dosh to service some of our home needs. Wow - radical, or what?

As far as the ghastly dictatorships and autocratic regimes in other parts of the world are concerned, they haven't sighted a convention and would probably shoot the messenger who brought them one. I'm absolutely not anti-Israel, per se. We all know that the Balfour Treaty was originally drawn up in 1904 with a view to giving the stateless Jew a homeland. Nothing was done by Europe until the results of the Holocaust were revealed, and then hey presto! Let's turn Palestine, in which Jews and Arabs lived amicably, into the land of Zion. Palestinians lost property galore and weren't compensated, and since the 1967 war, they've seen more and more of their own farms, towns, and legitimate settlements eroded by Israel's military force.

Just as side note, of course, we shouldn't forget the exploits of the Stern Gang or the Irgun, either, in what were then (the 1940s) considered and would definitely now be considered acts of terrorism against British interests.

Warbler, you of all people should know that the world is defined by war, or if not outright war, then by invasion and control. Our own isles were defined by successive invaders, just as we and other European nations invaded and took control of hitherto unexplored countries around the world. Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Germany, Belgium, Austria, Great Britain, following the tradition of the Mongols, the Romans, the Vikings, the Normans, the Moors, and assorted hordes too numerous to mention. Less successful were the German and Japanese invasions leading to WWII, with its enormous loss of both civilian and military life. There is no other way to define power than through conflict, as the human epoch stands at present, and no amount of talk of powerful trading nations, leaders in technology, etc., etc. means a jot when a militarily superior nation decides to go for the jugular of one more vulnerable.
 
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So because countries havent "signed up to the Geneva" convention, the EU should say and do nothing then?

For god sake, we should still hold a grudge against the jewish terorism in the 1940's? Perhaps we should hold a grudge against germany too...you know..the second world war?

Warbler...if the "whole economy" was bankrupt, then the state couldnt have rescued it could it? The state is part of the economy

There are very few (if any) economists suggesting that "collapse" is now likely or even possible

The industries you have listed? coal? do what? Oil? They havent "stolen" anyones oil. Oil is traded as we all know The US has hardly been self sufficient for decades. So whats new?

Aviation dependent on defence? Not Boeing and so what? Thats always been the case since the wright brothers

Either way, these are NOT the industries that dominate the US economy. You are reading a 1930's textbook. And Motor manufacturing (admittedly a shambles) is not crucial in any sense at all
 
And the UK economy shrinks by another 1.9% this quarter. Clive are you sure you these green shoots you're seeing aren't those of some kind of herbal plant?:D
 
LOL...well it will continue to keep shrinking for a while yet...but there are indicators before results....
 
So 45% of us want out it seems.

This one needs putting to the people again, on the back of yesterdays results. It's just that the governments of any colour are to scared for fear that democracy might break out!!!
 
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