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First quarter century behind us, what have we learned ?
- Thread starter edgt
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Now why would I be angry Luke? Maybe it is because people on here think it is ok for an Irish trainer to sit on a dead horse laughing whilst on a mobile phone and the so called animal lovers on here sit by and let your post go by without criticism?
It is simple really, I don't care about which country a piece of turd that does that comes from, you clearly do. I will ask you a question, and I just know you won't be honest here, along with the rest of you "animal lovers". If Nichols had done that would you have had the same sympathetic response?
As James O Brien says, footballification is about politics and football, but it also bleeds into horse racing. If a trainer you like does something vile, you support it, if you don't like him, you will jump on him. You, Luke, are the ultimate example of someone who sticks up for something disgusting just because you support him. You are not alone though on here, so not singling you out.
So many on here are supposed animal lovers, but won't call out a vile picture, due to footballification of racing, if it is an Irish trainer, they can do no wrong, if English, they are the devil.
Anyone who thinks Elliot sat on that dead horse laughing is ok, is no horse racing fan. You are not wired right if you think it is, it was plainly wrong on every level. He should have had a life ban.
It is simple really, I don't care about which country a piece of turd that does that comes from, you clearly do. I will ask you a question, and I just know you won't be honest here, along with the rest of you "animal lovers". If Nichols had done that would you have had the same sympathetic response?
As James O Brien says, footballification is about politics and football, but it also bleeds into horse racing. If a trainer you like does something vile, you support it, if you don't like him, you will jump on him. You, Luke, are the ultimate example of someone who sticks up for something disgusting just because you support him. You are not alone though on here, so not singling you out.
So many on here are supposed animal lovers, but won't call out a vile picture, due to footballification of racing, if it is an Irish trainer, they can do no wrong, if English, they are the devil.
Anyone who thinks Elliot sat on that dead horse laughing is ok, is no horse racing fan. You are not wired right if you think it is, it was plainly wrong on every level. He should have had a life ban.
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The horse was dead -it was ill judged,foolish and immature at worst.The horse did not suffer.
I believe Elliott has the best part of 300 horses in training -his owners are some of the most respected owners in Ireland and England.Do you really think JP would have horses in training with him if there were any doubts about his character.
Please explain why in your opinion he should receive a life ban.
I believe Elliott has the best part of 300 horses in training -his owners are some of the most respected owners in Ireland and England.Do you really think JP would have horses in training with him if there were any doubts about his character.
Please explain why in your opinion he should receive a life ban.
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I shouldn't need to, the picture told me all I need to. The Sun is still I think the most bought newspaper, might be the Mail, both s*t and full of nonsense. Numbers tell nothing. When it comes to making money in horse racing, people don't care about a vile image as displayed on here over that pic at the time, many defending the sh*t. I do though, it disgusted me totally. Really disgusted me. Hence I still comment now about it
It was worse than ill judged, you would not have given Nichols the same grace would you? That is my point Luke, you would not have given fatty man the same allowance you gave Elliot. You just will not admit your footballification will you?
Just surprised people on here think that image was a plus for racing, it was the very worst image I have seen re racing. Nothing wrong with bias Luke, as long as you can admit it, you clearly can't. Come on, if it had been tubby you would have been all over it like a rash? You would wouldn't you?
I'm not having a go at you personally Luke over this honestly, I always read your stuff and views with respect, but you have got racing footballification chap over this, come on.
I can honestly say no matter which side of the water he had come from, he would be finished over that incident.
Maybe I am getting soft, maybe it is just me, rest of the forum seem happy with a dead horse having a fat f*ck sitting on it laughing on a mobile phone, I might just be a silly "woke" old f*ck eh?
Either way, still respect your other opinions chap, keep em coming, we won't agree on this, but, that is what it is about, disagreeing and agreeing sometimes. Happy New Year anyway. All the best
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Over thirty years ago I followed the point to point circuit in Ireland for a season.It was nothing like as professional as it is now and you would really see some sights -horses breaking legs was a weekly occurrence.The one thing that sticks in my mind is a female trainer from Wexford who lost her very moderate pointer in Cork.There were arrangements to deal with fatally injured horses but she drove it over 100miles to make sure it was buried at home.
I would say very few people working in racing hate horses.
I would say very few people working in racing hate horses.
barjon
Rookie
- Joined
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You don’t think it said something about how GE truly regards horses. To me it spoke volumes.
I would say with 99%certainty that the photo does not represent his true attitude to horses.You simply cannot achieve what he has in his training career while simultaneously being contemptuous of horses.
The Cook report on Martin Pipe is available to watch on YouTube -watch it and tell me what you think.
The Cook report on Martin Pipe is available to watch on YouTube -watch it and tell me what you think.
SuperBee
Amateur Rider
I tried the car in front on me was going faster defence on a couple of times but it never works
I tend to believe that along with an IQ people also have an AQ, anger quotient, and choose where to spend it. I'm not wasting mine on a judgement lapse by a gobshite.
I'm going to spend mine on first world countries who provide ordinance to nations they know are intent on using it on hospitals, schools and children. For some reason a photo of a burning child always cuts me deeper than one of a dead animal, however inappropriate, and I'm reserving my AQ for that presently.
I'm going to spend mine on first world countries who provide ordinance to nations they know are intent on using it on hospitals, schools and children. For some reason a photo of a burning child always cuts me deeper than one of a dead animal, however inappropriate, and I'm reserving my AQ for that presently.
You are making presumptions as to my opinion of the Cook Report.
Len Madeiros
Rookie
No, it was a disgusting image, and I am totally with EC21 on this: Elliot should have received a life ban. You want to know why animal rights people hate racing so much, look no further than the behaviour of Elliot.
I know you have questioned my association with racing, Luke, despite my squeamishness, but I think it’s healthy to hear voices like mine on forums like this. I love the history, I love the horses - but I despair at the exploitation of these wonderful creatures. It’s a great weakness of mine, I freely admit.
And seeing a trainer, who is supposed to love horses, exploit a photo opportunity, looking like a game hunter, sat on shot prey, was the very worst image I have ever seen within the “sport”. The bloke should have been booted out of racing forever.
I know you have questioned my association with racing, Luke, despite my squeamishness, but I think it’s healthy to hear voices like mine on forums like this. I love the history, I love the horses - but I despair at the exploitation of these wonderful creatures. It’s a great weakness of mine, I freely admit.
And seeing a trainer, who is supposed to love horses, exploit a photo opportunity, looking like a game hunter, sat on shot prey, was the very worst image I have ever seen within the “sport”. The bloke should have been booted out of racing forever.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
- Joined
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- Messages
- 25,552
It was an awful image for racing in general and the trainer in particular.
I wouldn't trust Elliott as far as I could throw him, which would not be much further than end of my shoe, but there is maybe another dimension which Ruby Walsh occasionally brings into discussions.
Horses are not human beings.
Ireland is traditionally and historically a Catholic country (even if it only pays lip service these days) and in the Catholic Catechism there is a hierarchy of life in which animals are situated below humans (who are at the top).
Animals are for providing food and helping the human to work. Many animals are family pets and stable staff who look after the horses on a daily basis will be very close to them and any injury or death will be like an injury or death to a family member, just as our pet dogs and cats are to us.
Trainers don't get as close to the horses as the staff. Their job is to get the horse as fit and well as possible in order to make a profit for the owner. The horse is a commodity to them, that's all.
ITV don't help when they anthropomorphise the animal into something it just isn't - a human being - but that's because the UK viewing public want to think the horses are dearly beloved pets and they want to feign sympathy and empathy with animal lovers.
Ted Walsh once said in an interview he wanted to see his jockey 'tear rashers off' a horse if it meant it would win a race. Not much was said about that because the interview wouldn't have been widely viewed in the UK.
I wouldn't trust Elliott as far as I could throw him, which would not be much further than end of my shoe, but there is maybe another dimension which Ruby Walsh occasionally brings into discussions.
Horses are not human beings.
Ireland is traditionally and historically a Catholic country (even if it only pays lip service these days) and in the Catholic Catechism there is a hierarchy of life in which animals are situated below humans (who are at the top).
Animals are for providing food and helping the human to work. Many animals are family pets and stable staff who look after the horses on a daily basis will be very close to them and any injury or death will be like an injury or death to a family member, just as our pet dogs and cats are to us.
Trainers don't get as close to the horses as the staff. Their job is to get the horse as fit and well as possible in order to make a profit for the owner. The horse is a commodity to them, that's all.
ITV don't help when they anthropomorphise the animal into something it just isn't - a human being - but that's because the UK viewing public want to think the horses are dearly beloved pets and they want to feign sympathy and empathy with animal lovers.
Ted Walsh once said in an interview he wanted to see his jockey 'tear rashers off' a horse if it meant it would win a race. Not much was said about that because the interview wouldn't have been widely viewed in the UK.
I think as well as being culturally and historically a Catholic nation, Ireland has also been predominantly an agrarian society and as Maurice postulates, has a different relationship with animals than Britain. (I understand that this is a generalisation of immense proportions, but still true).
What Elliot did was stupid and wrong at all levels but in his world horses are livestock and a dead one is a carcass. I get it that this won't make sense to many of you.
I think this article in the RP shows another, much more common side to horse husbandry in Ireland.
www.racingpost.com
What Elliot did was stupid and wrong at all levels but in his world horses are livestock and a dead one is a carcass. I get it that this won't make sense to many of you.
I think this article in the RP shows another, much more common side to horse husbandry in Ireland.
'Suddenly he stood up and I was crying even more' - a loving groom and the horse who brought cheers and tears at Cheltenham
Colm Greaves talks to Dysart Dynamo's devoted groom Janna Walsh ahead of a return at Punchestown that once seemed highly unlikely
You seriously want to give the man a lifetime ban because of the optics.Animal rights people have been around long before Gordon Elliott took out a training licence-they are a scourge on our sport -I will not give them the time of day.All racing -flat and jumps -carries an element of risk.Horses will die,jockeys will die -it has been that way for hundreds of years.It is sad when a horse dies but it doesn't come remotely close to the tragedy of a jockeys death.
Nail on the head -as per usual.I think as well as being culturally and historically a Catholic nation, Ireland has also been predominantly an agrarian society and as Maurice postulates, has a different relationship with animals than Britain. (I understand that this is a generalisation of immense proportions, but still true).
What Elliot did was stupid and wrong at all levels but in his world horses are livestock and a dead one is a carcass. I get it that this won't make sense to many of you.
I think this article in the RP shows another, much more common side to horse husbandry in Ireland.
'Suddenly he stood up and I was crying even more' - a loving groom and the horse who brought cheers and tears at Cheltenham
Colm Greaves talks to Dysart Dynamo's devoted groom Janna Walsh ahead of a return at Punchestown that once seemed highly unlikely
notsodancingbrave
Amateur Rider
Personally I think the GE ban should have been longer as he made a conscious decision to sit on a horse that had just died and smile into the camera, very niaive or maybe a reflection of his attitude towards his charges who are just "ordinary".
For me I struggle to see how GE's ban can be anywhere in the same neighbourhood as the ban handed out to Shark Hanlon for a tarpaulin coming off as a dead horse was being transported.
Both ended up with a 6 month ban but IMHO neither "crime" matched the time.
For me I struggle to see how GE's ban can be anywhere in the same neighbourhood as the ban handed out to Shark Hanlon for a tarpaulin coming off as a dead horse was being transported.
Both ended up with a 6 month ban but IMHO neither "crime" matched the time.
edgt
Senior Jockey
TG4 a few years showed a re run of "The Little House On The Prairie ".
One episode showed a litter of pups taken from their mother, placed in a bag with a stone and drowned.
The narrator spoke that this behaviour was the norm at the time but never sat well with her.
The series was made about fifty years ago; it would not be shown anywhere else bar TG4 now without major heads rolling methinks. Racing has similarly changed beyond recognition to some; for better or worse who knows.
The big stables are winning factories, a conveyor belt of horses entering the system 70% fit to race, having the screws tightened to get them as fit as possible for as long as possible, then discarded when their winning potential is gone, whether that takes a day, week , month or years and they are replaced immediately.
No longer is a stable left empty out of respect to a previous champion; that day is gone.
Martin Pipe had upwards of 140 horses per season representing his stable 25 years ago.
I doubt there was another stable at the time with 120 plus individual runners a season.
So far this season D Skelton has run 217 horses, P Nicholls 142, Fergal O'Brien 140, Olly Murphy 134 and Donald McCain 126.
Gordon has run 258, WPM 234, Henry deB 148, Gavin Cromwell 136 and Philip Rothwell 95.
How many of each figure is still in training with their respective trainers is the question we would not have asked twenty five years ago but everyone seems to be asking now.
Stallions cover up to 300 mares a season to breed champions , yet quite a few champions come from stallions that cover smaller books of mares, so where is the sense in such huge books. (12 Grade 1 winners last week were by 11 different stallions; Kayf Tara the only to sire 2 G1 winners.)
We had a divided 4 year old maiden race at Dromahane p2p yesterday.
The winners in each race are worth more as a 4 yo winner yesterday than as a 5 yo winner this weekend.
Breeders are breeding to sell, not to race.
Any attempt by the stallion men to reduce stock numbers will be replaced by French imports, the French have increased their matings to meet the demand.
For sure, nothing exceeds like excess and excess leads to extinction, whether the thoughtless image taken and leaked of a trainer sitting on a dead horse ; four years after the event ,will be the catalyst or the perceived notion that ownership of any animal is for life, and the responsibility is that of a parent for a child even when the parent is in their nineties and the children in their seventies.
One episode showed a litter of pups taken from their mother, placed in a bag with a stone and drowned.
The narrator spoke that this behaviour was the norm at the time but never sat well with her.
The series was made about fifty years ago; it would not be shown anywhere else bar TG4 now without major heads rolling methinks. Racing has similarly changed beyond recognition to some; for better or worse who knows.
The big stables are winning factories, a conveyor belt of horses entering the system 70% fit to race, having the screws tightened to get them as fit as possible for as long as possible, then discarded when their winning potential is gone, whether that takes a day, week , month or years and they are replaced immediately.
No longer is a stable left empty out of respect to a previous champion; that day is gone.
Martin Pipe had upwards of 140 horses per season representing his stable 25 years ago.
I doubt there was another stable at the time with 120 plus individual runners a season.
So far this season D Skelton has run 217 horses, P Nicholls 142, Fergal O'Brien 140, Olly Murphy 134 and Donald McCain 126.
Gordon has run 258, WPM 234, Henry deB 148, Gavin Cromwell 136 and Philip Rothwell 95.
How many of each figure is still in training with their respective trainers is the question we would not have asked twenty five years ago but everyone seems to be asking now.
Stallions cover up to 300 mares a season to breed champions , yet quite a few champions come from stallions that cover smaller books of mares, so where is the sense in such huge books. (12 Grade 1 winners last week were by 11 different stallions; Kayf Tara the only to sire 2 G1 winners.)
We had a divided 4 year old maiden race at Dromahane p2p yesterday.
The winners in each race are worth more as a 4 yo winner yesterday than as a 5 yo winner this weekend.
Breeders are breeding to sell, not to race.
Any attempt by the stallion men to reduce stock numbers will be replaced by French imports, the French have increased their matings to meet the demand.
For sure, nothing exceeds like excess and excess leads to extinction, whether the thoughtless image taken and leaked of a trainer sitting on a dead horse ; four years after the event ,will be the catalyst or the perceived notion that ownership of any animal is for life, and the responsibility is that of a parent for a child even when the parent is in their nineties and the children in their seventies.