Flat or Jumps?

Euronymous said:
Myself I love both codes but would say I'm 60/40 Jumps in preference. The last couple of years there have been two really great cards on the flat - Arc day in 2015 and Champions Day a week or so back. I was excited for both days but that excitement came nowhere close to those days leading up to the festival in March.

Betting wise I do expect to make more on the flat but only because there are just more opportunities throughout the season in the sort of races I get involved in.
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Almost exactly how I see it Euro, although I'd have it a bit closer, maybe 55/45 in favour of NH and it's probably the big days/festivals that seal it.
Although there a more flat festivals the longing for and excitement of Kempton and Leopardstown over Christmas and Cheltenham in the spring will never be beaten, though once they've crossed the line in the Grand Annual I'm more than ready for the Lincoln :)

What I don't understand is the genuine hostilty towards flat racing that you find on here, One poster summed up flat racing as running round a sand pit at Wolverhampton, which has as much relevance to the Epsom Derby as a selling hurdle at Towcester in mid- January does to the Champion Hurdle.
 
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Aughex said:
Flat is always going to be attractive for those looking for speedy types of events. Not for me, anymore. I was however first introduced to horse racing in a sprint race set in France(I believe a G1) and seeing how fast their legs moved was sensational and even more so than watching a F1 race. I slowly began to expand my interest on horse racing and discovered the WARRIORS over jumps. They are a race of special horses, those that can jump and like to do it at high speed. I mean anyone who tells me horses are forced to take those risks should watch daily racing when at least a horse refuses to race. Accidents happen but in my country 20-50 people die daily from car crashes, should we not watch or enjoy car events because accidents happen? And what about the behind the scenes of flat racing, how many horses not good enough get sent to slaughterhouses, in Japan they don't have the option of going over jumps, A/w, over staying trips over 3 different code, or pursuing other careers or finding a owner, they are shipped directly in there. Are you telling me that at least thousands of racehorses that are monthly killed in countries like Japan, Hong-Kong, Italy, etc. offset a a dozen warriors over jumps that monthly die in accidents? Ignorance is bliss. I'd rather have my death recorded on TV where thousands fans can watch me in glory, than die at home secretly killed by my wife :-)

Frankel is my 2nd favourite flat horse but he wouldn't give even a class 3 hurdler a race in a 2 mile race. My favourite The Tatling wouldn't give even a class 4 2-mile hurdler a race on flat over 1 mile. I wouldn't give a Gold Cup winner a chance in a Champion Hurdle. 3 different sports and different distances performed by the same athletes causing confusing with the use of term class. The top sprinter in Australia wouldn't figure in any European G1s over a mile and further. Who is classiest? They all are if they are best in their division.

Jump racing has soul, whereas Flat is an empty wine bottle that you've drank in despair and you try to forget it as fast as possible. A jump race you go back and watch it ten hundred times and you can't still get enough. The critics of jumps say it isn't competitive, well thats due to those in charge of the race calendar, horses are kept apart because trainers of the favourites actually talk via phone(or skype those young blocks) and decide which goes where. It isn't the horses fault that the system is made up for so many alternatives. From 2000 the number of G1s in jump racing, especially in Ireland has sky-rocketed. Why would the trainers want to take each other on prior to the big established races?
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Thats a great post Luke. I reckon you've got it just about spot on there.
 
Len Madeiros said:
Fair point, Grassy. I think an earlier point about three entirely separate disciplines applies here, but I still think that flat horses are "classier", just because they run faster.
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That was my point though, I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but do you mean classier as in someone who looks more classy than another? In that case, a flat horse who hates obstacles won't look classy in a hurdle race, a 3 mile chaser won't look classy in a champion hurdle, a champion hurdle won't look classy in a grand national, a sprinter won't look classy after a mile struggling to hold its position against stamina horses, and so on. Class cannot be compared over different sports/trips. Otherwise lets all declare quarter horses the classier animals just because they run faster. In that sense a 2 mile hurdler who's doing art jumping at high speed(35-40mph of which middle-distance races are over flat) should be considered the classiest.
 
Aughex said:
That was my point though, I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but do you mean classier as in someone who looks more classy than another? In that case, a flat horse who hates obstacles won't look classy in a hurdle race, a 3 mile chaser won't look classy in a champion hurdle, a champion hurdle won't look classy in a grand national, a sprinter won't look classy after a mile struggling to hold its position against stamina horses, and so on. Class cannot be compared over different sports/trips. Otherwise lets all declare quarter horses the classier animals just because they run faster. In that sense a 2 mile hurdler who's doing art jumping at high speed(35-40mph of which middle-distance races are over flat) should be considered the classiest.
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I think what I'm trying to say is that flat horses are classier because they run faster, can sustain a turn of foot for a longer period of time and don't win races by being the horse that slows down the least. Over the championship distances, at least. The greater prize money on the flat doesn't come into my thinking, tbh, as I accept that the future breeding value will be taken account of.
 
By that logic, Len, sprinters are classier than middle-distance horses.

There are classy Flat horses, and there are classy Jumpers. One is not superior to the other because they are different things entirely, and the measure is wholly subjective anyway.
 
@Les, please go here http://www.turftrax.co.uk/ and take a look at the closing sectionals. In sprint races. Rarely you'll get a finishing effort that is faster than what they've run to in the middle part of the race, unless the pace is very slow. Same with hurdlers and chasers. This is a principle in horse racing that the winner comes from those that slow down the least. As for a turn of foot sustained over long periods, how about a turn of foot that lasts half a mile up-to a mile? You won't get that with flat racing. Most sprinters and milers have a turn of foot that usually lasts for a furlong and with exceptions for 2 furlongs. After that they slow down.
 
Suggest you look at them yourself, Aughex.
There aren't too many for the jumps, but the quickest race of 2014 Festival was Jezki's Champion Hurdle (course record time) run @ 13.74 s.p.f. By comparison the 2m race on Champion's Day at Ascot the same year was run @ 13.55 s.p.f. - albeit on heavier ground, and the slowest run race of the meeting.
The inference is obvious.
 
reet hard said:
Suggest you look at them yourself, Aughex.
There aren't too many for the jumps, but the quickest race of 2014 Festival was Jezki's Champion Hurdle (course record time) run @ 13.74 s.p.f. By comparison the 2m race on Champion's Day at Ascot the same year was run @ 13.55 s.p.f. - albeit on heavier ground, and the slowest run race of the meeting.
The inference is obvious.
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Yes, that jumping breaks a horses momentum and is a less efficient way of covering ground.

Sent from my SM-G360F using Tapatalk
 
reet hard said:
Suggest you look at them yourself, Aughex.
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I did that before posting the link. No matter how you spin it, the finishing effort of a horse in any flat race is exactly like a 4 mile chase race, meaning SLOWER at the end, the horses are slowing down in the later part of the race. This was in response to "flat horses don't win races by being the horse that slows down the least". Sure the flat horses don't slow down to a walk like in 4 mile chases maybe thats what @Len was describing but in a 2 mile championship race over hurdles or chases you rarely see horses slow down visually. The second point I argued: "can sustain a turn of foot for a longer period of time" is also wrong as stamina horses can switch gear and maintain it for longer periods of time and its even more impressive when they are blocked by obstacles in their way.
 
Len Madeiros said:
Although I do prefer the jumps, I accept that the horses on the flat are of a far higher class: flat racing is of a far higher "standard", if you like. The best jumps horses I have ever seen wouldn't get near a 100 rating on the flat.
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horse for courses surely Len? Set aside hurdles as for me its not much different from the flat, but a good standard of horse over the chase is a totally different beast to the whippets running round Great Leighs in front of 10 people and a bookie.
 
Thanks for all your views, and I'm still learning. But I still can't see a jumps or even a hurdles horse accelerating like a flat horse at the end of a race, in the manner that a Dancing Brave did at the penultimate furlong of a Derby (under 11 seconds). I think that's what I mean about "class" or "classier". Of course DB is an example of a great flat horse, but the likes of Istabraq or Kauto Star wouldn't be doing that at the end of their races.
 
In fairness to the jumping brigade of horses, they have an extra stone or two on board, will likely be running on slower ground, will be travelling over a minimum of double the distance and will have jumped 12 obstacles before they enter the straight
 
Distance is relative, Len.

A horse will expend more energy the further it goes, hence it's unreasonable to expect a horse running over 16f and further, to ever demonstrate the same speed as a horse running over 10f - no matter where they are in the race. It's probably physically impossible for a horse to sustain '10f speed' over a trip of 2-miles.

Again, if 'class' is defined only by speed/acceleration, then Sprinters would be defined as having more class than Classic winners. It's too simplistic a measure. Class, in my view, accounts for more than just basic speed. Factors like authority of performance, elevation above peer-group, consistency......these (and other factors) are all considerations, when it comes to establishing a horse's class, imho.
 
Len Madeiros said:
Thanks for all your views, and I'm still learning. But I still can't see a jumps or even a hurdles horse accelerating like a flat horse at the end of a race, in the manner that a Dancing Brave did at the penultimate furlong of a Derby (under 11 seconds). I think that's what I mean about "class" or "classier". Of course DB is an example of a great flat horse, but the likes of Istabraq or Kauto Star wouldn't be doing that at the end of their races.
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the best way to look at this is imagine that stamina is like an elastic band being stretched...when not stretched its thicker (sprinter).as you stretch it it gets thinner (stayer)

Assume we have a horse running over both codes..lets say its an 80 flat horse miler..that horse then goes hurdling and will achieve in theory a 120 rating over hurdles

If NH hunt races were run over a mile then the only difference between them and flat racers would be the time it takes to jump the obstacles. The pace between the hurdles/fences would not be any slower or faster.

Lets take the 80/120 horse..its not suddenly going to go slower due to any difference in its ability when put over jumps. The only thing that makes it go slower is the fact its now running over 2 miles and jumping obstacles.

Its only like looking at 2m flat races..there aren't many of those finish like Dancing Brave or a sprinter coming from first to last..but its not because they aren't or can't be classy..its just like when the elastic is stretched ..there is less available variance in speed changes

its just the nature of stretching the elastic band...when the elastic band is thick you can stretch it very easily (show speed)..but when its stretched it gets to a point where you can't stretch it any more...so its harder to show large changes of stretch..or in this case speed change in stamina tests

Most of the quickening you see in flat races is just the others slowing quicker than the winner..its mainly an optical illusion in a truly run race..yes a horse can quicken and go faster late in a race if the pace has been steady..but generally in truly run races its just who slows down the least that wins..on both codes

You also have the way flat races are run..its not all equal energy distribution..or "even pace". at every trip.....in 5 + 6f races the energy is used more early than late..7f is a bit of a crossover..then as you get to a mile+ pace needs to be more evenly spread over a race. At 2 miles even pace is more important as if you use too much energy early..you will pay heavily at the end..which is the exact opposite of the sprint..where if you went "even pace" the others would be miles in front after 2f...so you would pay so much at the start you wouldn't pull it back late on.

if a horse was ridden in a 5f race the same way it was ridden a mile race..you would find yourself lengths behind behind by halfway...sprint is about early energy use. Sprint finishes are horses slowing at a greater rate than over further where running even fractions is needed.
 
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EC1 said:
the best way to look at this is imagine that stamina is like an elastic band being stretched...when not stretched its thicker (sprinter).as you stretch it it gets thinner (stayer)

Assume we have a horse running over both codes..lets say its an 80 flat horse miler..that horse then goes hurdling and will achieve in theory a 120 rating over hurdles

If NH hunt races were run over a mile then the only difference between them and flat racers would be the time it takes to jump the obstacles. The pace between the hurdles/fences would not be any slower or faster.

Lets take the 80/120 horse..its not suddenly going to go slower due to any difference in its ability when put over jumps. The only thing that makes it go slower is the fact its now running over 2 miles and jumping obstacles.

Its only like looking at 2m flat races..there aren't many of those finish like Dancing Brave or a sprinter coming from first to last..but its not because they aren't or can't be classy..its just like when the elastic is stretched ..there is less available variance in speed changes

its just the nature of stretching the elastic band...when the elastic band is thick you can stretch it very easily (show speed)..but when its stretched it gets to a point where you can't stretch it any more...so its harder to show large changes of stretch..or in this case speed change in stamina tests

Most of the quickening you see in flat races is just the others slowing quicker than the winner..its mainly an optical illusion in a truly run race..yes a horse can quicken and go faster late in a race if the pace has been steady..but generally in truly run races its just who slows down the least that wins..on both codes

You also have the way flat races are run..its not all equal energy distribution..or "even pace". at every trip.....in 5 + 6f races the energy is used more early than late..7f is a bit of a crossover..then as you get to a mile+ pace needs to be more evenly spread over a race. At 2 miles even pace is more important as if you use too much energy early..you will pay heavily at the end..which is the exact opposite of the sprint..where if you went "even pace" the others would be miles in front after 2f...so you would pay so much at the start you wouldn't pull it back late on.

if a horse was ridden in a 5f race the same way it was ridden a mile race..you would find yourself lengths behind behind by halfway...sprint is about early energy use. Sprint finishes are horses slowing at a greater rate than over further where running even fractions is needed.
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Fine explanation, EC1 - thank you.
 
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