Going preferences, going descriptions

Grey

Senior Jockey
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I had assumed for years that the progeny of a typical sire would have a preference for either dry or wet ground, and that the further the needle moved in the favoured direction the more often they won. There are some sires whose progeny do indeed show such a tendency. For example, Street Crys win 3% of their races on heavy, 5% on soft, 10% on good to soft, 11% on good and 13% on good to firm. It seems the faster the going, the more often they win. Lyphard is the complete opposite, his progeny love the mud: heavy 20%, soft 11%, good to soft 10%, good 9%, good to firm 8%.

But it turns out that these examples are not typical. Street Cry's profile is unusual, and Lyphard's wetter-the-better profile is downright rare.

I see five types, in order of what I believe to be their numeric importance:

U-Curves
1) The largest group of sires follow a pattern similar, to a greater or lesser degree, to Shantou's 18-13-10-13-20 profile, which would resemble a U if depicted on a graph.

For some the U-shape is rather shallow (e.g. Bob Back 11-11-10-12-14)…

...or one of its sides is skewed (Dr Massini's 9-9-8-12-13 is both shallow and skewed to the right)…

...but nevertheless in this group there is a general pattern whereby the least preferred going is GS and they do better on the extremes of either H or GF.

Flatliners
2) For some sires, including some of the most successful ones, there is no big difference from one type of going to the next. Sadler's Wells and Galileo would be in this group

Inverted Us
3) If there is a group that shows an aversion to GS ground then there has to be another which does well on it, if for no other reason than the races run on such ground are still there to be won. But more than that, there's a group which does better on GS than any other type of ground. Milan (10-11-16-14-13) is in this group, and, to a less pronounced extent, King's Theatre (11-13-14-12-13).

Sloping Line
4) These are the types like Street Cry and Lyphard already mentioned above, who improve as the ground gets progressively drier/wetter.

Mongrels
5) A lot of sires don't fit exactly into one of the preceding categories but still recognisably belong in one of them. But, as always, there is still a group which don't fit in, even in an approximate way, e.g. Accordion (11-13-11-12-9) or Nayef (13-11-10-7-10).

So what is going on? Why do most horses seem to fall into either the U or inverted U-curve categories? Why do so many of them go worst on Good to Soft while being happy enough with Heavy and Good to Firm?


Maybe what matters most to the majority of horses is not the scale between wetness and dryness, but between stickiness and 'fluidity', a term which could apply both to loose wet ground and to fast ground. GS stands out as the dividing point because this is the type of going which most often comes up holding/tacky/sticky and it is the liking or aversion to such conditions that is coming through in the statistics. It is also possible to have sticky conditions on Heavy and Soft, but less often perhaps than on GS, so the difference between the two groups is less pronounced.

Does all this sound daft or am I merely stating the bleeding obvious? The French going descriptions suggest that I am, to them at least. As well as terms for Good (Bon) and Heavy (Lourd), there are others such as Souple (supple/smooth going), Collant (sticky) and Tres Collant (downright gluey) which generally are mistranslated in the English version of the French form book, because the concepts are not equivalent.

I wonder if this is at the root of the frequent complaints that French going descriptions (as translated into English) often seem to bear no relation to the times of races? And might we be better off with a going typology that takes account not only of how far the stick goes in, but how easily it can be pulled out again (so to speak)?
 
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I have a couple of questions on your analysis. Have you tested for the amount of runners in races on extremes of going? Does it make a difference? I would expect most sires to fall into this category, as there are larger fields in extreme of grounds.
 
Good question, the sort of reaction I was hoping to get. The answer is no.

If a single horse shows both great success/longevity and a preference for a particular type of going, how much does that distort the figures of its sire? For example, if you crunch the numbers, you'll find that Theatrical has a 21% strike rate on fibresand, but if you look closer, you'll see that he's actually only sired 2 individual winners on the surface, one of whom has won 12 times from 12 races.
 
If a single horse shows both great success/longevity and a preference for a particular type of going, how much does that distort the figures of its sire? For example, if you crunch the numbers, you'll find that Theatrical has a 21% strike rate on fibresand, but if you look closer, you'll see that he's actually only sired 2 individual winners on the surface, one of whom has won 12 times from 12 races.

That's a typical problem with small samples, but I don't think I've run into that problem. The figures I've given are only used to illustrate the different types of pattern that exist across a much larger population.
 
I have a couple of questions on your analysis. Have you tested for the amount of runners in races on extremes of going? Does it make a difference? I would expect most sires to fall into this category, as there are larger fields in extreme of grounds.

yes i can see what you mean about more runners but why are there more runners in soft ground races?

if there are more runners then a way round that is to us average/expected figures which would get round that

Grey.. are these stats from RP?..ie worldwide
 
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STREET CRY's figures just from UK mainland racing courtesy of Flatstats site

All = A/E 0.94

Firm = 1.28
G/F = 0.94
Good = 1.15
G/S = 0.95
Soft = 0.25
Hvy = 0 [small sample]

that seems to back up your stats Grey
 
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Bar,I was wondering if you'd got it the wrong way round. Have you any idea what the numbers are or where to find them?

EC1, I've been looking at Racing Post data.
 
Is it as good to note the ground preference of the sires in question themselves and check progeny to see if they "fit" or are more adaptable.
Aiden O Brien was at one time at pains to describe how the good Sadlers Wells horses changed the nature of their gait according to the going, a rarity.
Anyone remembering Turtle Island's irish 2000 gns win will remember how he revelled on heavy, winning by 15 l. Hence For An Angel is expected to prefer ease !
Celtic Swing favoured ease in the going, so did most his progeny.
Captain Rio progeny ruled the roost in 2009 ,a wet summer. Where they went to this year I am not sure; maybe that success did not come to fruition yet.
The dam is forgotten in all this also, directly at least so may explain the abberations.
An interesting topic though. Get a study going and J S Bolger is sure to fund it!
 
These figures are % for races won
I would be more interested in the ratings the progeny is able to perform in the conditions

you can have the same horse to win a gf class 4 race and to be runner up in the Arc on heavy ground.
 
These figures are % for races won
I would be more interested in the ratings the progeny is able to perform in the conditions

you can have the same horse to win a gf class 4 race and to be runner up in the Arc on heavy ground.

True enough, Suny, if you're trying to evaluate the progeny of an individual sire.
 
Could you sketch the typcial shape of each sires progeny based on the bio-mehanics required to achieve the results that are shown in the progeny results ? Does the U shape signify that horses that like good ground, hate everything in the middle (sticky) but can cope again once the turf is so wet they can get through it and not stuck in it ?

There have been wet summers since 2009 so i'd guess Captain Rio's results where just due to his crop size that year although he does do ok. Being by Pivotal they're bound to like a cut.
 
Could you sketch the typcial shape of each sires progeny based on the bio-mehanics required to achieve the results that are shown in the progeny results ?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

Does the U shape signify that horses that like good ground, hate everything in the middle (sticky) but can cope again once the turf is so wet they can get through it and not stuck in it ?

That's more or less the general idea. Horses by sires with the U profile do least well on good to soft, and I'm suggesting it might be because they don't like sticky ground. GS ground isn't always sticky, but I suspect it comes up sticky more often than other types of ground and that is the explanation.

Horses by sires with an inverted U profile, on the other hand, are more likely to handle sticky conditions.

Horses by sires whose profile resembles a flat line are more likely to indifferent to ground conditions.

Horses by sires with a sloping line profile will tend towards either end of the Heavy to Soft scale but are neither bothered nor favoured by sticky ground.

That is the hypothesis.
 
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Grey, why don't you look at the average percentage for all sires in aggregate? Inverse will be runners per race.

Deviation from mean line will give going preference.

That would make sense, the only problem being it would take ages because I don't have access to a database allowing that sort of aggregation. I might try it on a sample to get a feel for what's involved.
 
Sorry, I don't understand the question.


Horses by sires with an inverted U profile, on the other hand, are more likely to handle sticky conditions.

Horses by sires whose profile resembles a flat line are more likely to indifferent to ground conditions.

Horses by sires with a sloping line profile will tend towards either end of the Heavy to Soft scale but are neither bothered nor favoured by sticky ground.

That is the hypothesis.

Interesting stuff.

There is a school of thought that says horses should be bred by selecting physical attributes and trying to instill those attributes through the sire into the progeny rather than relying on nicks, best to best etc. You could probably tell the shape or the way a sires progeny are engineered by looking at there results on the 'U'...... angle of the pastern, shape size of the shoulder etc.
 
I am going to sound like a right pain in the arse, but U-shapes are to be expected, I am pretty sure...due to the differences in the number of runners per race.

I think the analysis has the potential to be interested, but the data needs to be scrubbed first.
 
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