Here's A Surprise

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Ardross

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Four Britons who were returned to the UK after being detained at Guantanamo Bay for up to three years were released without charge, police said.

Moazzam Begg, from Birmingham, Feroz Abbasi from Croydon, south London, Martin Mubanga from Wembley, north west London, and Richard Belmar from St John's Wood, north west London, were all released from Paddington Green station.

The men have been escorted to a location of their choice to be reunited with their families.
 
They might have been released without charge, but what do they claim they were doing? are we supposed to believe they were just on holiday?
And they are planning on suing the US government.
Well that's fine, just as long as they use their own money to do it.
 
One of them was kidnapped in pakistan one arrested in Zambia . Whatever they were doing there is plainly no evidence it was terrorism . Begg told his lawyer he had to invent a story about hiring a helicoptor to drop anthrax on Leicester to stop being tortured . Of the others released last year it seems pretty clear the Tipton Three , one of whom was renowned for his love of football and beer were in the borderlands of pakistan at the wrong time .

The evidence of torture is now coming from the CIA . Does Democracy need to adopt the methods of the Gestapo and Henry VIII to protect itself ?
 
Perhaps we need to lower our sights a bit as to what 'democracy' is able to do to EFFECTIVELY defend itself from its' undoubted enemies, Ardross. There is no point to us having so-called security systems in place if our societies can be wrecked by unchecked outside influences, is there?

You must surely accept that while autocracies (those 'self-installed' royal rulers you so often complain about) seem only too willing to rub along with various democratic countries, theocracies don't and won't. The howl coming from extremist Islam about the impending elections in Iraq, is that these are the work of Satan and his disciples. And you do have to believe that they mean what they say, and will follow through words into action whenever and wherever possible.

Since Islamic theocrats would have no truck with democracy and would do anything they could to undermine it (and have tried hard enough, with bombs and assassinations in Egypt, as one example), how do YOU propose that democratic countries react when the extremists murder indiscriminately, in the full belief that they are doing holy work in trying to overthrow an immoral, wicked institution?

I don't think Gestapo methods were used, since I don't think anyone's nails were torn out, or hot pokers applied to them, but I'm sure some extreme deprivations took place. If you'd lost your entire office-ful of colleagues and friends in the WTC, maybe you'd lose a little bit of your high moral stance towards the way the reasonably suspected might be treated, if it would save further similar outrages?
 
After 3 years detention, I am sure that if the USA had or could have proved any wrongdoing at all, they would have done. I am glad they have been released.
 
Coming out of my theoretical world, I look at the experience of internment in Northern Ireland and see that it helped fuel the very campaign it was intended to suppress.

To casually discard the principles of liberty and justice which you proclaim to be the cornerstones of your society is to hand your opponents a massive propaganda victory.

Yes, I do think you are entitled to take exceptional measures against terrorism, but to deny people their basic human rights is not part of any effective solution.
 
The way you deal with prisoners of war is to treat them like prisoners of war .

If someone commits a crime you prosecute them

You do not torture, you do not murder , you do not hold without trial - you do not take a leaf out Mugabe's book and put them under house arrest.

I find it incredible that people are defending torture - it does not work ( people will say anything if tortured and is thus inherently unreliable )

It is a recruiting sergeant as Grey points out .

Time for Griff to enter the real world rather than a fantasy world where repression and breaches of human rights protect national security.

I am appalled by the proposals for these executive control orders - in the hands of Charles Clarke they might not be abused but the thought of putting such powers in the hands of a new Blunkett , Howard or a Kilroy Silk is horrific .
 
Originally posted by PDJ@Jan 27 2005, 06:31 AM
After 3 years detention, I am sure that if the USA had or could have proved any wrongdoing at all, they would have done. I am glad they have been released.
Click to expand...
3 YEARS is a long time to be in-terror-gated :o they were taken out of the chain for a reason ..............
 
Are you allowed to treat suspected terrorists as prisoners of war?

Anyway, are these people really British? If I move to Japan does that make me Japanese? If these people are foreigners that have been granted a British passport and are then found to be guilty of terrorism offences they should be jailed for 30 years and if they are still alive when their sentence has finished they should be deported to wherever they came from.
Also their immediate family should be deported now to back to wherever they came from for abusing our hospitality.

Of course if they are really innocent, I take all the above back.
 
Originally posted by Ted@Jan 27 2005, 01:15 PM
Are you allowed to treat suspected terrorists as prisoners of war?
Click to expand...
If your going to look at it that way Ted, is there such a thing as a prisoner of war? e.g. Considering the holocaust in particular, it would be hard to think of the Nazis as being anything other than terrorists.

As Grey & Ardross both point out, treating them in the way they did merely acted as a recruiting agent for whoever they were accused of representing.
 
ardross

terrrorists are not prisoners of war they are captured terrorists is as easy as that


under the geneva convention to be treated as a prisoner of war you have to be cuaght in the uniform of the country you are fighting for.soldiers swapping uniforms can be executed for example.


but to deny people their basic human rights is not part of any effective solution.
Click to expand...


actually not quite correct

the argentinians defeated their red army faction

the uraguayans defeated their home based terrrorsit group

the germans defeated to the bader meinhoff (they have a policy called schillering not sure if right spelling but its meaning was below a certain line the gloves come off)

the methods used were appalling breaches of human rights but they were effective
especially in the case of the mentioned south american countries

one favoured method of argentine was to load the suspects into a bomb bay of a plane fly it over the villages they were born , which were identified as places supporting the terrorist cause, and then let them out .the bodies raining down on the villages weakened the resolve of the villagers in aiding and abetting the terrorists

appalling breaches but effective

not that i am suggesting this is a course the uk should be taking


mind you a few memebers of oscar bin ladens entourage "pouring down" on jeddah may give some 2nd thoughts of joining up
 
Dear oh Dear Prince. We all know what happens to human rights when the Germans take the gloves off eh!

I presume your favourite group are the Weather Girls?
 
So, while you don't think the UK should adopt such a line, you're saying that the troubles in NI would've been over a long time ago if the British government had dropped all IRA detainees out of planes over republican parts of Belfast? Would the apartheid system that treated RC's as second class citizens still be in place?
 
sorry an
the weather girls :confused:


ht

i was not expressing a personal opinion on how terrrorists should be dealt with

nor was i expressing any personal wish of how i would have liked them to be dealt with whether it be the ira that you mention or any other group

if my post sounded like i was in favour of such methods its badly written and i apologize.

you mention the 2nd class treatment of rcs in northern ireland im not sure if you are insinuating that i would support such a regime , im quite well versed on how the rcs were suppressed, and believe me i am anything but a supporter of a goverment that rules by discrimination whether on the grounds of colour or religon.

i was merely trying by the use of history to point out that plenty of regimes have
by the use of denying people any form of human rights got the results that they or their backers wanted. Of course thankfully these regimes were eventually removed

and also to point out the difficulties in combating terrorists when despite having laws on human rights and prisoners of war and despite terrorism in one form or another being a major event in these decades no one has actually drawn up an acceptable convention (or treaty) on how to deal with them
 
Sorry PR - The Weather Girls were a one hit wonder - later covered by Ginger Spice. I think these were the words....

The Weather Girls

It's Raining Men Lyrics

Tension is rising - defence's getting low
According to all sources, somethings gonna blow
Cause tonight for the first time
Just about half-past ten
For the first time from our Airplane
It's gonna start raining men.

It's Raining Men! In Fallujah! - It's Raining Men! In Jeddah!
I'm gonna go out to run and let myself get
A bang of a terrorist!
It's Raining Men! In Bora Bora!
It's Raining Men! Every one of Osama's Men!
None tall or blonde all dark and lean
Rough and tough and strong and mean

God bless Donald Rumsfield, he's a single purpose too
He took them off to Cuba and he did what he had to do
He taught every captive to scream until they cry
Then took them back to Basra, to fall out of the sky
It's Raining Men! In Ramallah! - It's Raining Men!In Armagh!
It's Raining Men! Halalujah!
It's Raining Men! In Darfur!

I feel astormydayiscoming / Moving in about to begin
Hear the thunder / Don't you lose your head
Rip off the roof and stay in bed

God bless David Blunkett, he's a single vision too
He took off to Westminister and he did what he had to do
He taught 600 years of law to scream until it cried,
So that for each crime they could stitch the perfect guy
It's Raining Men! Yeah!

Anger is rising - morale is getting low
According to all sources, Baghdad is goin to blow!
Cause this week for the first time
They think they have a vote,
Not for the first time in history
It's gonna be raining bits of men.

It's Raining Men! In Chechnia! - It's Raining Men! In Quantanamo!
It's Raining Men! In Bibao! - It's Raining Men!
 
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