Hunting

Originally posted by fudge@Nov 19 2004, 05:49 PM
So when this ban comes in who is gonna take responsibility for all the dogs that are gonna have to be killed? And most of the old horses that are going to have to be put down as they will no longer be of much use? Oh and the estimated 8000 people who are going to be jobless?
To give an extreme and admittedly distasteful example, the closure of the concentration cmaps in Germany at the end of the Second World War probably created unemployment too.

But, as that gross example illustrates, sometimes employment opportunities have to take second palce to that which the majority find morally repugnant.

Foxes are ''just'' animals, not humans, but the majority want the culling of foxes in association with some sort of sporting/social activity stopped and the majority and the law should be respected.

Better the tyranny of the majority than the tyranny of the minority or, worse, still, the then tyranny of the one.
 
Venusian

I will repeat what i said, as you have not answered the question. Does this make it right.

The construction of your sentence was fine, and you have done it again "I felt that the neck being broken was probably the case, but I couldn't be 100% sure" If you cant be 100% sure? why say was proberly the case And the only little problem i can see is that the sick people that cant get it into there little head, that hunting animals with dogs is no more from february but you can all still meet up and talk about it.

You also say that the slaughter of cattle, i.e. their killing for the purpose of harvesting meat, is deliberately prolonged.

And compare and contrast with, say, stag hunting, where the deer dies instantly - the huntsman does not try to cut the animal's throat, or deliberately fire the pistol slightly off-target to make the act of dying last longer.

A few facts about stag hunting.

1. The deer are shot with sawn off shotguns, not rifles. During a hunt, the hounds seperate and hunt the target deer miles away from the rest of the herd. The suggestion that the rest of the deer tag along and watch without fear while the hounds, riders and followers surround the hunted deer and shoot it is laughable.

2. Monitors of the League Against Cruel Sports have recorded on film three incidents where deer 'at bay' have been shot at from close range with sawn-off shotguns which failed to kill the animal. In one case the deer was shot five times over period of six minutes before it was wrestled under water by hunt officials and supporters. In another case, the deer's jaw was smashed wish the first shot, and the animal was hunted for a further quarter of an hour before being caught and shot with a pistol.

This can go on and on, but all i will say to finish is that fox hunters should get used to the idea of not hunting with dogs.

Regards
 
Mistakes can be made and shouldn't be condoned or covered up, but they certainly aren't the norm, whereas the death of an animal in a ritual killing environment is always deliberately prolonged.

The point about deer watching "without fear" is a curious one to make. Deer seem not to be bothered in the slightest if one of their herd is shot dead. I remember seeing this demonstrated on TV a few years ago, it may have been in Scotland, where there were a load of deer grazing away, one of them gets shot dead, and his pals scarcely look up, and carry on munching as if nothing had ever happened.

As far as West Country deer are concerned, their only sources of cruelty at present are poachers, motorists and hard winters.

Hunting with hounds is a pretty effective way of managing and improving red deer herds, not the only way, but it pays for itself, and those herds have thrived under that management.

I'd guess that without hunting, the deer population would decrease fairly quickly and significantly, and in unpleasant ways. Stag hunting could to be replaced by another system of management involving stalking and accurate shooting, although the population would still tend to decline. I don't know what the situation is on the Quantocks, where they ceased hunting a few years back, whether the numbers have changed.

One thing that the hunts tend to do is to disperse the herds around the counryside so that they don't tend to congregate in the same areas all the time, and do damage in the same places. This means that a higher overall population can be tolerated - if they're driving farmers (or golf clubs!) to distraction in one locality, the hunt can move them along to another, so the "nuisance" is shared out more equally.

Ian, your comparison of hunters with Nazi concentration camp guards is indeed distasteful, but not only that, its relevance is not immediately apparent, especially since hunting in Nazi Germany was banned on the specific orders of Hitler.
 
Originally posted by Venusian@Nov 20 2004, 09:32 AM
Ian, your comparison of hunters with Nazi concentration camp guards is indeed distasteful, but not only that, its relevance is not immediately apparent, especially since hunting in Nazi Germany was banned on the specific orders of Hitler.
Ven, I think what Ian was saying is apparent if you read it in the context of his post.
 
What stuns me is how the Countryside Alliance and their allies in the Lords have deliberately,by rejecting the delay, chosen to make life far more difficult for those who work in hunting and make it much more difficult for them to retrain etc .

It shows they don't actually care a flying f **k about those who work in hunting
 
On the news tonight - "It will be hard to prosecute huntspeople unless they are actively chasing a fox ." Apparently it's perfectly legal to ride out with hounds , iit's only when a fox becomes involved that the activity would be illegal . That would be impossible to police . Out of 6-7hrs hunting you'll only cross a fox once and chase it for 30 mins max before it gets away . There is no way they could police this law .
 
Many police chiefs have said as much in the last few days. Clearly, they can't actually say "we aren't going to bother to police illegal hunting" - it would be tantamount to asking to be sacked - but there's little doubt that's what they mean.

No doubt there'll be a bit of token activity during the first week, but it will surely be quietly stopped ("re-prioritised" is the term they'll probably use) after that.

I see that hunting rabbits with hounds is to be permitted however - can any of the anti-field sports forumites shed any light on the "thinking" behind this concession?

A number of anti-field sports organisations have now started to campaign against shooting. The League Against Cruel Sports and the Labour Animal Welfare Society, to name but two, have announced a change to target the sport. Police have advised shooting estates to tighten their security. So, it looks like the police will have to cover shooting as well as hunting.

It's lucky the crime rate is so low in this country, what with the high clear-up rate and all those officers just sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the phones to ring. Should be a doddle, eh?
 
Venusian,

I'm not so sure.

The Tories insisted upon the enforcement of unpopular legislation 1979-1997 and I could see David Blunkett et al doing likewise post an election victory - public sentiment (which you are proudly out of touch with) will demand it.

The bottom line here is that ''tryanny of the majority'' (aka democracy) is better than ''tyranny of the minority'' or, worse still, ''tyranny of the one.''

There is no point in electing governments and having legislation passed if people don't obey the law.

I hated much of the Tory legislation 1979-1997, but I complied with all of it.

To me, on general principle, ther'e's something extremely sinister and unhealthy about these rural mutterings about civil disobedience.

I sincerely hope everyone who breaks this law gets to see the inside of a prison cell, and loses all the rights (like being easily able to travel to other countries) that are associated with having a criminal record.
 
Ven,
Hare Coursing is included in the Bill. Ican't imagine the Hunt Chasing after rabbits with a pack of hounds.

Will it still be legal to out as a Hunt with all the Hounds in tow?

I doubt it.
 
Don't you mean Tory legislation 1979-2003?!

Apart from Thatcher and Major, Blair is probably the most Conservative Prime Minister since Churchill.

"I sincerely hope everyone who breaks this law gets to see the inside of a prison cell, and loses all the rights (like being easily able to travel to other countries) that are associated with having a criminal record."

Ian, it's all getting a bit plaintive now, isn't it?
 
The fun bit will be the present hunt saboteurs will take the gloves off they will of course be enforcing the law
 
Get on so hunting will continue! How the hell are they gonna police it following hounds round all day and like they will manage to stop all the hounds when they get a scent of the fox. :lol: They will never stop it people will do it on their own private land and there is f#@k all they can do to stop them. :P
 
Fudge,
i don't think that you will be able to go trogging round the countryside,on horseback,with 50 or sixty hounds in tow.
 
Originally posted by Derek.Burgess@Nov 20 2004, 08:56 PM
Fudge,
i don't think that you will be able to go trogging round the countryside,on horseback,with 50 or sixty hounds in tow.
That's exactly the point Derek . It's only illegal if the 50 riders and 50 hounds are proven to be chasing a fox :lol: So business as usual I think :)
 
Not at all Solerina . Hunt saboteurs will be in out in their hundreds now . The police will no longer be there to allow the hunts to go ahead . Furthermore in the absence of a hare laying a trail for a drag hunt I reckon it will be rather less difficult to prove from circumstantial evidence that they are fox hunting than the CA like to suggest .

In any event , if it proves to be so then the law can be amended :D
 
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