Il Papa

simmo

simmo

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29198491

Genuinely interested in the take from the Catholic community on here about this story.

I recall one poster saying that they refused to watch Friends because it displayed promiscuity, un-married sex etc etc, so I'm intrigued to see how those who have lived their lives as a "hardcore" Catholic feel now that the Pope has basically stated that this view is unrealistic?

And what will be next? Surely this is a step down the road towards contraception.
 
When I went to London in 1992 I went to mass every day for the first 8 weeks.It took me 10 months to give it up completely.As I see it the problem with most religions is different nationalities thinking they are Gods special people.If you chose a religion that should be your own business but it shouldn't be inflicted on others.
 
LUKE said:
Did someone seriously say that about Friends.
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I'm the person he's referring to but that's not what I said.

I said I wouldn't let my young daughter watch it because the content and context of it wasn't appropriate for one so young.
 
simmo said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29198491
I'm intrigued to see how those who have lived their lives as a "hardcore" Catholic feel now that the Pope has basically stated that this view is unrealistic?
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I think most hardcore Catholics have long since drifted away from the Roman communion, and have gravitated towards the lunatic-fringe spin-offs like the Tridentines, the Palmarians and the SSPX.
The remaining Roman Catholics really don't take too much notice of what any pope teaches on certain specific subjects. It's a kind of pick-and-mix religion nowadays for many of the catholic confraternity -- people will go to Mass on Sunday's for the sake of tradition and show; parents will "pretend" devotion in order to gain admission for their children to Catholic schools.

But as far as following the church's diktats on sex-for-procreation-purposes-only, and other stuff like fasting, penance, and prayer, ........... I don't believe the majority of Roman Catholics follow to the letter.
So whatever the Pope declares, I think he is singing to an unlistening audience in the main.
 
I disagree entirely, icebreaker, although you may be referring to how things are in Ireland in which case I shouldn't comment as I don't know how things are there.

Leaving aside how one might define 'hardcore', an ironic choice of vocabulary in the context, I still go to Mass every Sunday and often enough on weekdays (but do not consider myself 'devout') and the people I know do so because they are simply following their faith. It has nothing to do with tradition and certainly not for show.

I can accept that younger people will do so while they're still living with or near their parents and might ultimately stop going once they feel confident enough in themselves to take that step should that be the path they want to follow.

It isn't hard to foresee how this thread is likely to go so I will be adding no more to it other than to say I absolutely reserve the right to decide how best, in my opinion, to bring up my daughter and if any of you ever met her I am totally and utterly confident you would be very impressed with her as a person.
 
Desert Orchid said:
It isn't hard to foresee how this thread is likely to go so I will be adding no more to it other than to say I absolutely reserve the right to decide how best, in my opinion, to bring up my daughter and if any of you ever met her I am totally and utterly confident you would be very impressed with her as a person.
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As long as Harry doesn't add his imbecilic bilge we should be ok.

I wasn't going to name names on the Friends comment, but since you've now done so, here's what you said.

Desert Orchid said:
I wasn't aware you found Friends subversive.

It's not a word I would use to describe it. It can be funny (occasionally) but maybe I'm just over-protective.

I didn't want my young daughter thinking that it's OK to have multiple pre- and/or extra-marital sexual relationships at a time when she was going through a stage in her life when she was most susceptible to influence. Now that's she's older we can sit and watch it together and discuss the issues objectively. Thankfully, she seems to share her parents' opinions. The day will probably come when her views will change but until then I'll feel as though her mother and I have done our job.
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The point of starting the thread was to understand how you and others now feel, since Il Papa has effectively declared that you are wrong to think that?

Obviously you have the right to do pretty much whatever you like with your life/children etc, that is not in question. Nor are my views on the rights and wrongs of this particular subject relevant to the discussion.

I was simply trying to gain an understanding of how what I would describe as a "hardcore" Catholic feels about this situation. By hardcore, I am not referring to the lunatic fringes, just those who actually follow the teachings as laid down by the Pope in their day to day life.

I asked the missus who describes herself as a lapsed Catholic, on her views on the subject and got a shrug and a "maybe they're bringing themselves in line with modern society", but since she's been living in sin with an athiest for the past 20 years, I don't think she's reflective of actual followers of Catholicism.

It occurred to me that the logical next step down the road to bringing the Church into the 21st Century could be relaxing official doctrines on contraception.

I was not after a barney or having a go at anyones choice of religion.
 
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simmo said:
those who actually follow the teachings as laid down by the Pope in their day to day life.
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I am certain that those who do are a small minority. Genuinely. I believe most catholics take little or no notice of the pope's teachings. How many young(ish) catholic-in-name married couples adhere to the pope's instruction that marital sex may be only indulged in for the purpose of creating a baby? Very few, I would hazard.
Most thinking people would also argue that the Catholic Church has no right to lecture anyone on sexual conduct or mores in light of the innumerable sex scandals and paedophilia crimes committed by ordained clergy of that church. And they will not listen to any lectures from that source.

I asked the missus who describes herself as a lapsed Catholic, on her views on the subject and got a shrug ................. I don't think she's reflective of actual followers of Catholicism.
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I think that she is. :)
 
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The Catholic church are simply in no position to hand down lectures to anyone regarding morality and how they should live their lifes. It must be the biggest organised child abuse ring in the world and under any other circumstances would be hunted down and prosecuted for the criminal syndicate that it is. How does it get away with it? Well because it's religious - yeah right - a religion based on a God that they can't prove exists shouldn't exempt them from prosecution. They really ought to be the subject on a UN special mandate and placed on the axis of evil alongside North Korea, and the Premiership
 
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icebreaker said:
I think that she is.
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She might be reflective of the majority of those in this country who profess to be catholic, but she's not reflective of those who follow catholicism for the simple reason that she doesn't.

Hopefully Dessie will give us his views later. Having thought it through a bit further I'm now wondering if there could come a time for people like him where they feel that the teachings of the Church no longer represents their views on life?
 
Haven't Copernicus, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Hawking, Higgs and countless other shown us that - if there is a Creator - his purpose is much more about facilitating our understanding of the Cosmos and all that's in it, rather than judging us for what we may or may not do behind closed-doors?

My personal God is much too busy fu*cking about with Auroras and mashing-up Neutron stars, to be bothering his Almighty hole with trivia such as we mortals are apt to fret about.
 
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It blows my mind a bit that people still bother going to Mass. I can understand devout religious folk in the middle east because they are 400 years behind the times down there but in such a modern society as ours how has such superstition still manged to retain it's hold.
 
simmo said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29198491.. that the Pope has basically stated that this view is unrealistic?

And what will be next? Surely this is a step down the road towards contraception.
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He hasn't actually said that, according to the article.

The article, as I read it, is about His Holiness upholding the teaching of Christ, that of love for one's neighbour, tolerance and forgiveness.

The Church isn't saying it is OK to cohabit, etc etc. It might one day but it isn't according to that article.

It is saying that the Pope is, if anything, more Christ-like in his ministry than his predecessors in that he is not allowing what might have been regarded previously (and may still be) with concern to cloud the message that God's forgiveness is available to everyone.

I know people who have had marriages annulled but it took years and made it difficult for the people involved to maintain their faith as they felt treated as sinners when they were if anything victims.

I know people who have remarried in the church having had children from previous marriages. That strikes me as no big deal.

The article also makes no mention of the current and past state of mind, if I can call it that, of the people involved in the ceremony reported. It may be that these people have had audiences with certain clergy and it has perhaps been accepted that they have undertaken to adhere more closely to their teaching. Who knows?

I repeat the question: who knows?

The article does not say.

Any interpretation that the ceremony reported denotes a change in the Pope's stance is entirely subjective.

As for the ongoing debate about contraception etc, that is all it is at this stage. Debate.

So far the forum discussion has remained civil and largely respectful.

I'll give 10/1 against it staying that way.
 
Euronymous said:
It blows my mind a bit that people still bother going to Mass. I can understand devout religious folk in the middle east because they are 400 years behind the times down there but in such a modern society as ours how has such superstition still manged to retain it's hold.
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This post appeared at some point between my reading the original article more carefully and replying.

To dismiss people's religious beliefs as 'superstition' is a form of disrespect, the type I feared earlier in the thread.

I'm out.
 
Desert Orchid said:
This post appeared at some point between my reading the original article more carefully and replying.

To dismiss people's religious beliefs as 'superstition' is a form of disrespect, the type I feared earlier in the thread.

I'm out.
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But it is superstition. I understand why it still has it's hold, my mother is religious and holds onto the belief that she will see her parents again one day. Surely though at it's root it's just another "team" for people to be on. We've seen this in the ISIS/Israel debates, the Ian Paisley and Scottish Independence ones as well. If people aren't part of some specific group set, even if it's the right wing nut job sect run by harry and clivex, do they feel isolated from the rest of humanity. And is my atheism just another team?
 
simmo said:
As long as Harry doesn't add his imbecilic bilge we should be ok.

I wasn't going to name names on the Friends comment, but since you've now done so, here's what you said.



The point of starting the thread was to understand how you and others now feel, since Il Papa has effectively declared that you are wrong to think that?

Obviously you have the right to do pretty much whatever you like with your life/children etc, that is not in question. Nor are my views on the rights and wrongs of this particular subject relevant to the discussion.

I was simply trying to gain an understanding of how what I would describe as a "hardcore" Catholic feels about this situation. By hardcore, I am not referring to the lunatic fringes, just those who actually follow the teachings as laid down by the Pope in their day to day life.

I asked the missus who describes herself as a lapsed Catholic, on her views on the subject and got a shrug and a "maybe they're bringing themselves in line with modern society", but since she's been living in sin with an athiest for the past 20 years, I don't think she's reflective of actual followers of Catholicism.

It occurred to me that the logical next step down the road to bringing the Church into the 21st Century could be relaxing official doctrines on contraception.

I was not after a barney or having a go at anyones choice of religion.
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I won't so you are OK:D

Slightly surprised though Simmo, didn't have you down as a Prick, never mind!
 
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Desert Orchid said:
This post appeared at some point between my reading the original article more carefully and replying.

To dismiss people's religious beliefs as 'superstition' is a form of disrespect, the type I feared earlier in the thread.

I'm out.
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DO.....interested to know.......do you 'respect' ISIS and their religious beliefs??

Of course, I know the answer already, but you can hopefully see what I'm getting at.
 
funny how you can be called a right wing nut here by people that are continuously too gutless or thick to ever challenge a point made.

I actually do think its contemptuous to dismiss religious beliefs as superstition. That from people that believe in socialism which is absolutely proven to be a comprehensive 100% cast iron FAILURE.

Many people have beliefs without having to hang their hat on a sect
 
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Do you really mean that socialism is a a comprehensive 100% cast iron FAILURE?

Or do you think types of socialism are failures? Communism, Libertarian socialism / anarchism, Liberal socialism, Democratic socialism, Ethical socialism (some say Blairism)?
 
Communism and the command economy. Both complete failures

Since Labour has (rightly) kept the description at an increasingly arms length, then its fair to say that it more or less applies to the relative extremes now.

Few argue for state run "enterprises" (an oxymoron if there ever was one), penalising spite taxes and union control these days. If they do, they are likely to be sectioned
 
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Please explain to us where the economy would be today Clive were it not for the state intervening in the banking industry 2008?
 
That is an entirely different matter. I have explained that before

For the umpteenth time, the intervention was

1. effectively financing for a limited period

2. No effective control over the actual running of the bank in terms of marketing, lending and management (public sector run bank? think co op and weep)

3. An early exit as possible with an actual profit (as has happened)
 
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