Il Papa

All of which is a lame qualification for the FACT that the entire western banking system would have collapsed. Yes or No

Would it, or wouldn't it?

When Lloyds said that they thought they could last until half past 10 at the latest, they were lying were they? And if Lloyds fell that morning (as they expected to) do you think for one second Barcleys would have lasted another week?

Your definition of free market capitalism Clive comes with a giant two fingers to the state that says leave it up to us, we know best, we're the business brains, until.... until we don't know best, in which case please come and bail us out we've made catastrophic errors and busted the globe

Luckily though the Chinese communist party is on hand to bail out America and buy up all their bonds. Where would we have been without Chinese liquidity?
 
Bar the Bull said:
Do you really mean that socialism is a a comprehensive 100% cast iron FAILURE?

Or do you think types of socialism are failures? Communism, Libertarian socialism / anarchism, Liberal socialism, Democratic socialism, Ethical socialism (some say Blairism)?
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Socialism kind of works in countries where the Government can be trusted to spend the money wisely rather than pocket it or give it to their fat cat banker/chinless wonder/gangster chums.
 
Warbler said:
All of which is a lame qualification for the FACT that the entire western banking system would have collapsed. Yes or No

Would it, or wouldn't it?

When Lloyds said that they thought they could last until half past 10 at the latest, they were lying were they? And if Lloyds fell that morning (as they expected to) do you think for one second Barcleys would have lasted another week?

Your definition of free market capitalism Clive comes with a giant two fingers to the state that says leave it up to us, we know best, we're the business brains, until.... until we don't know best, in which case please come and bail us out we've made catastrophic errors and busted the globe

Luckily though the Chinese communist party is on hand to bail out America and buy up all their bonds. Where would we have been without Chinese liquidity?
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Chinese bonds did not make any difference in fact. Qe did not require Chinese bond holders

The free market is back in it's feet . Big time . Venezuela is the alternative? Oil rich failed economy . You couldn't make it up

State controlled economies have always failed . Mao?

The business brains are not and never will be in the state . That is obvious

You completely miss the point about so called nationalisation. The banks were guaranteed but never state controlled .

Even during the banking crisis no one anywhere with any idea of economics seriously suggested that state control of the economy was the answer. Least of all the electorate . It was highly significant that hard left parties made zero progress . That finally signalled the end of a failed idealogy
 
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Euronymous said:
But it is superstition. I understand why it still has it's hold, my mother is religious and holds onto the belief that she will see her parents again one day. Surely though at it's root it's just another "team" for people to be on. We've seen this in the ISIS/Israel debates, the Ian Paisley and Scottish Independence ones as well. If people aren't part of some specific group set, even if it's the right wing nut job sect run by harry and clivex, do they feel isolated from the rest of humanity. And is my atheism just another team?
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Exactly, for some with religion, it's like the Enlightenment never happened...
 
Euronymous said:
Socialism kind of works in countries where the Government can be trusted to spend the money wisely rather than pocket it or give it to their fat cat banker/chinless wonder/gangster chums.
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But they never can? Authoritarian governments have no responsibility to anyone and thus are under no scrutiny whatsoever. Killing competion in the market is a naturally disastrous

Time after time we have seen this

Granted an elected redistributive government can work to some extent but the natural effect of high taxes and anti business enterprise is ultimately a declining economy
 
Clive, Warbler is making you look stupid. It's your own fault because you took such an extreme position first off. You should stop arguing and making it worse.
 
What are you talking about?

Answer the points or don't bother

How much more evidence does anyone need that state run economies have been and always will be dismal?

Jesus
 
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Why don't you answer Warbler's question about where we would be (all of us worldwide) would be if the state didn't bail out the banks in 2008?
 
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Hamm said:
Why don't you answer Warbler's question about where we would be (all of us worldwide) would be if the state didn't bail out the banks in 2008?
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Why do I have to?

It's nothing to do with socialism whatsoever. Totally different issue .

We know what would have happened. And what's happened since? The guarantees worked and profits have actually been made on the share holdings in most banks taken by the governments . That's a fact

No one is saying that the banks were anything other than stupid and greedy but the rest of the economy was largely blameless. It was not and never will be a Pointer to the old days of useless state enterprises

Never

Which state run economy has outperformed the west since 2007? North Korea ? Venezuela? China has only flown once the state let go (although does have issues which will come to the fore) .
 
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clivex said:
Chinese bonds did not make any difference in fact. Qe did not require Chinese bond holders
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Really....

I think you're on your own there Clive. The Chinese buying up western bonds was cirtical in keeping the whole thing churning, the west was pleading with the Chinese to buy their debt. If the west (principally America) didn't need this flow, then they wouldn't have issued bonds on the scale that they did. Hell they were even going down the Brady route. They were finished Clive. The free market is only back on its feet because of good old fashioned state intervention. You could argue that's part of the free market model of course, but if you're going to do that, at least admit it, instead of trying to hide behind this idea that free markets know best and should be left alone to their own thing. Sorry Clive that whole idea died a death in 2008 - RIP - gone - dead - failed

I was aware of the ownership/ management dynamics to be honest Clive, but I wasn't sure whether or not you were having told us that the Co-Op bank was a 'public sector run bank' - no it wasn't. the Co-Op movement isn't even a public sector entity
 
You don't seem to realise that not everything has to be an extreme. Either socialism or capitalism. Left wing or right wing. When you learn that and stop hating/demonising the other side, it will be easier to debate with you.
 
Warbler said:
Really....

I think you're on your own there Clive. The Chinese buying up western bonds was cirtical in keeping the whole thing churning, the west was pleading with the Chinese to buy their debt. If the west (principally America) didn't need this flow, then they wouldn't have issued bonds on the scale that they did. Hell they were even going down the Brady route. They were finished Clive. The free market is only back on its feet because of good old fashioned state intervention. You could argue that's part of the free market model of course, but if you're going to do that, at least admit it, instead of trying to hide behind this idea that free markets know best and should be left alone to their own thing. Sorry Clive that whole idea died a death in 2008 - RIP - gone - dead - failed

I was aware of the ownership/ management dynamics to be honest Clive, but I wasn't sure whether or not you were having told us that the Co-Op bank was a 'public sector run bank' - no it wasn't. the Co-Op movement isn't even a public sector entity
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No that is simply not true!. As I said quantative easing did not involve Chinese bond holders . Simple as that.

I am talking about the co op putting a public sector numpty on the board and making horrendous decisions. Now Fred Goodwin did too of course but it was a perfect example

Free markets need some control . I'm no believer in Hayek but by an enormous margin they have delivered far far more than state run economies time and time again
 
clivex said:
But they never can? Authoritarian governments have no responsibility to anyone and thus are under no scrutiny whatsoever. Killing competion in the market is a naturally disastrous

Time after time we have seen this

Granted an elected redistributive government can work to some extent but the natural effect of high taxes and anti business enterprise is ultimately a declining economy
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I wasn't referring to Totalitarian societies. Scandinavian Governments have fairer Tax systems and they tend to spend the proceeds on improving the country. Germany too I think.
 
That's fair enough euro . But they are still essentially free market with little state run
 
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