Info Required On Trainer And Racing Syndicate

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Ricko

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A mate of mine is thinking of getting involved with a company called Rob Lloyd Racing Syndications and i'm contemplating buying a share. Just after a bit of info really. Does anyone know anything about them? And just as importantly, they have David Murray Smith lined up as the trainer. I don't know much about him, can anyone give me any thoughts or opinions?

Many thanks in advance.
 
Originally posted by Arkwright@Apr 24 2008, 11:00 AM
http://www.roblloydracing.co.uk/

David was a succesful trainer in the 80's/90's best known as the trainer of Aquilifer.
He also trained the very useful flat stayer Old Rouvel.
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Thanks, I had seen the website, just wondering if anyone knew much about the trainer. Just found this article from the Guardian.

Ron Cox
Monday March 24, 2008
The Guardian

David Murray Smith does not believe in looking back, but he will always have a soft spot for the Irish Grand National. This day 23 years ago, he won the Fairyhouse feature with Rhyme 'N' Reason, the first English-trained winner in 57 years. After seven years out of the sport, Murray Smith is now back in the training ranks, charged with making a success out of a new venture, the brainchild of property developer Rob Lloyd.

Article continues
"Rob has had several horses down the years with Richard Fahey," said Murray Smith. "It has always been an ambition of his to set up on his own. Last summer he bought Haycroft Farm and it has developed from there."

Murray Smith is a salaried trainer at the new premises, situated near Tarporley in Cheshire, and is employed by Rob Lloyd Racing Ltd but he stresses it is not a private operation. "We have outside owners and are actively encouraging more," he says. "This has all happened quickly and it is still evolving, but we have an American-style barn with 40 boxes and all-weather gallops."

It is a fresh challenge for Murray Smith and he relishes the return to training after being forced to give up at the end of 2000. By that time, he had moved from his Lambourn base to a yard in Leicestershire. "At the end, I was struggling to make it pay, and when you don't have good horses you don't get good owners."

Murray Smith, now 53, does not dwell on the circumstances which saw Rhyme 'N' Reason under the care of David Elsworth when he won the Grand National at Aintree in 1988. "We were hit by a virus for a time at Lambourn and some horses were moved," he recalls. Those taken away also included future jumping stars Sabin Du Loir and Twin Oaks.

But the 1988 Cheltenham Festival winner Aquilifer was a testament to the skills of Murray Smith - "he won six that season and went up 63lb" - and, though generally remembered as a jumps trainer, Murray Smith won the 1991 Wokingham Handicap at Royal Ascot with Amigo Menor.

Indeed, it is surprising Murray Smith did not go down the Flat route from the word go, for he learned the ropes with three of the best in the business. In addition to a spell with Woody Stevens in America, Murray Smith had six years with Major Dick Hern and four with Vincent O'Brien.

"I was lucky enough to see 16 Classic winners," Murray Smith recalls fondly. "In my first year with the Major he won four Classics, it was the time of Highclere and Bustino. I was very fortunate to have a grounding like that."

Haycroft Farm is chiefly a Flat operation, bolstered by 23 two-year-olds. "Rob bought foals the year before last, and likes to watch them develop," says Murray Smith. "We were also active at the yearling sales and bought a couple of two-year-olds at the breeze-up sales at Kempton recently."

All the buying is done on the recommendation of Irish bloodstock agent Bobby O'Ryan. "Bobby is very much part of the set-up here. He's a fantastic judge. We haven't done a lot with the two-year-olds, but there's a nice Celtic Swing colt called Anfield Star, I'm pleased with Goodison Glory, and the filly Ice Attack shows promise. For later on there's American Champ, Hit The Switch, and a nice Mr Greeley filly, Best Bidder."

Pat Cosgrave will have the pick of the rides for Murray Smith, now preparing for an open day on April 6. After a seven-year absence, he has to prove himself all over again. "You have to adapt to the facilities you have," he says. "You tweak things, but the principles stay the same. You just have to be open to new ideas."
 
I was just having a gander at this as I have my own syndicate operation in Ireland.

I was looking at the horses section http://www.rlracingsyndications.co.uk/racehorses.html
Here is Peckforton, a two year old filly bought for 9k in Oct 2007 by Bobby O'Ryan. Grand. Free lease. Ok. £99 per month......ok.......for a 1/30th share!! Am I readin that right? That's £100 a month for 12 months is £1,200 a year times 30 shares is £36k. Why would you not buy the filly and train it for that? I appreciate they are taking a risk premiuim but they are also getting her back at the end of the season! And in the 12 months she will more than likely be out of training for 3 months, at least.

The other one, Rubenstar, at least has raced and is rated 71. But £230 per month for a 1/12th share is still around the £35k mark for the year.

Am I reading something wrong here? I get the impression that if they half fill these syndicates they have paid for the upkeep of the horse.
 
I aired this concern to Ricko in a PM, as I didn't think it was worth posting on the thread about it.

It is ripping off members however.
 
They appear a little expensive to me for leases, but nearly all these outfits seem to be so.

I see that Rubenstar was bought for 12,000 last Autumn and ran 4th a couple of weeks ago. He looks the better (or least worst, depending how you look at things!) value of the pair, but according to the site, he's fully syndicated. The filly looks ok, and is bred right to be an early sort, but not entered up yet.

I also note that, apart from the trainer, there's a managing director (Lloyd), plus a racing manager, plus a non-executive director in the person of Mike Cattermole. What, in a racing syndicate, is the role of a "non-executive director"? Does it equate to "freeloader"?

If you join a "celebrity syndicate", you also get a "syndicate captain", whatever that is.

Not really my cup of tea, but then I'm a career crusty old buffer in such matters.
 
It really doesn't matter how many people are "named" in the operation, for me there are three basic requirements for a syndicate operation: (a) track record (b) transparency and © value for money.

The syndicate manager doesn't really discuss his previous racing and syndicate experience. No one can really argue that the trainer is not good enough but the rest of the team are unknown and not explained on the website. So that's (a) gone. I struggle to see the value for money in this and agree that at least with Rubenstar you have a 71 rated horse. So that's © gone. And I can't see what they are making out of it. I'm guessing what a horse might cost to train in uk but no idea so can prob work out how much margin they are making. but why not just tell us.....it's simpler and transparent. Even Michael O'Leary doesn't mind people making a margin, just not a supernormal one. People are willing to pay for a quality offering and service and syndicate operators should get remunerated accordingly for it but let them say that.

This is what makes people cynical about syndicate operations and it is the biggest problem I have attracting people to my syndicates which I hope, even to the most cynical, cover (a), (b) and ©!!
 
I'd guess that Mike is being used to add some sort of authenticity to the outfit, a kind of "celebrity endorsement". I wouldn't have thought that he'd get a lot out of it in all fairness.
 
Cantoris, just out of interest, what would you deem to be fair leases for those two animals at the prices paid for them last autumn. (Not wanting a quote, just a rough idea will do!).
 
I have no idea really. We don't lease horses so difficult to value. Generally fillies are leased by breeders.

Let's look at it a different way and come up with a residual value. If they get £35k from members and it costs about £15-18k to train and race during the say eight months it will be racing, that leaves around £17-20k in the kitty for Lloyd. Take out her pruchase price and they get £8-11k in the paw, assuming they sell all the shares. And they have a horse at the end of the season to either race the next year or sell.

Elite were the experts at this and in fairness to them, they were good at it and did it when syndicate businesses were just getting going. But it just gives some of us who offer something different a bad name.
 
Well said, Cantoris.

Elite, like other high profile syndicates (Ponsonby being a classic example) have got down to an art form the practice of getting lots of people to pay for them to have their own horses in training, running in their own name and colours, whilst making a nice little cash sum too. Not bad if you can get it ~ but as you say it gives syndicates a bad name. Not all are out to fleece people but many are so I can see why so many people are wary of them (as well as for other reasons).
 
The one thing Shadow that I'm never afraid to tell people is how much I make in management fees annually. I say this up front to people and I think the honesty shocks a few people as it is next to impossible to find out from most syndicate operators. They will call it everything under the sun from admin to risk premium etc etc. They should be happy to break it out, if you buy a horse and take a risk while putting the syndicate together no-one has a problem with you charging something for that.
 
Originally posted by Cantoris@Apr 24 2008, 07:54 PM
The one thing Shadow that I'm never afraid to tell people is how much I make in management fees annually. I say this up front to people and I think the honesty shocks a few people as it is next to impossible to find out from most syndicate operators. They will call it everything under the sun from admin to risk premium etc etc. They should be happy to break it out, if you buy a horse and take a risk while putting the syndicate together no-one has a problem with you charging something for that.
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Thanks for all the replies on this guys. We're really just looking for a decent opportunity to get involved in a syndicate without getting ripped off. It seems this might not be the way forward. Where are you based Cantoris?
 
That's the way to do it Cantoris - at least that way if anyone doesn't like it they don't have to get involved in the first place. If you're still offering value for money and the people still want to get involved then all's grand.

As you say, too many try to hide the profits they are making for themselves by dressing it up as something else.
 
I'm based in Ireland Ricko. Horses in training with Colm Murphy and we spend around €35k buying unbroken 3/4 year olds. I won't put the website up here but will PM it to you. And in case anyone is wondering, my management fee is €250 per share per year. 12 shares so that's €3k a year in total. Far more reasonable and there are some operations out there that do it free gratis so if they can be found, they are worth considering.
 
Originally posted by Cantoris@Apr 24 2008, 08:07 PM
I'm based in Ireland Ricko. Horses in training with Colm Murphy and we spend around €35k buying unbroken 3/4 year olds. I won't put the website up here but will PM it to you. And in case anyone is wondering, my management fee is €250 per share per year. 12 shares so that's €3k a year in total. Far more reasonable and there are some operations out there that do it free gratis so if they can be found, they are worth considering.
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Thanks mate. Does anyone know of any similar operations in England? Preferably the North West?
 
That doesn't seem too unreasonable for a commercial concern, especially in the €35k price bracket you quote.

Not that I know anything about it.
 
I would be a bit wary after seeing their advert in the Post a few weeks ago for an open day but no mention of the location. I see one of their syndicates is called " Mike Cattermole" according todays Post, he must be getting a few quid for that.
It seems there are a lot of conmen out there after making a fast buck, even supposedly reputable syndicates such as Favourites are advertising a horse in todays Post for double it's purchase price, quite hefty when it's purchase price was over 60 grand plus 3 grand a month + vat training fees. Nice work if you can get it.
 
Dante, when did Favourites buy that horse? I do think that a purchaser who buys say in October and sells in March is entitled to not just the training fees but a risk premium for holding the horse. Ultimately if the horse gets injured in that time it is Favourites problem. Deciding this risk premium is the issue. I would have thought that £2/3k per month risk premium is ok. Do you end up owning that horse or leasing it?
 
Own it Cantoris, not sure when they purchased it but would think it was before the New Year, a charge per month since purchase is reasonable, that's what Mark Johnston the trainer of the horse does but their's looks excessive as do their monthly charge.
 
Alan who??????:D
I've always felt that Favourites were rather expensive,we've always operated at the lower end of the scale with our syndicate and it has certainly never been a money making scheme for those in charge (in fact quite the opposite).

Our latest recruit is slightly different in that we have bought into a horse with Paul Clarkson's syndicates,he has done reasonably well and isn't too expensive either.

Deva Racing is featured also on the RP today.
That is one of Nicky Vaughan's with Michael Owen based in Cheshire,dunno if that would be worth a look.
Again a bit expensive though.
 
No,only time I've ever been to Cockerham was donkeys years ago for an Open Day when Jack still had the licence.
 
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