Irish Guineas
- Thread starter Aragorn
- Start date
EC1
On a break
me too..kingman
birdsnest
At the Start
Palace carried 1lb overweight in the Guineas, but beaten 9 lgths into 5th.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
I'm with you Bar..Kingman has proved yet again he's a top class colt.
What too often we see performances like that of Night of Thunder never to be repeated.
I wouldn't go as far to say he'll murder him but I do think he'll def come out on top if they meet again.
EC1
On a break
i'm sure NOT is a very good horse..but i'm thinking a scenario like Kris & Tap On Wood.
Over a mile Kingman wins all day long, as he should have done at Newmarket if he had been put in the race. At 10 furlongs NOT looks like he'll be useful though.
Bar the Bull
At the Start
Yeah, fair enough.
NoT obviously has a scope to stay a little bit further. But my point was over a mile. Kingman looks like a really top drawer colt. I am looking forward to seeing the SJP Stakes, as well as the remaining mile Group 1s against older horses.
NoT obviously has a scope to stay a little bit further. But my point was over a mile. Kingman looks like a really top drawer colt. I am looking forward to seeing the SJP Stakes, as well as the remaining mile Group 1s against older horses.
I like Kingman a lot but can you explain what you mean by 'if he had been put in the race'? I can't see how he wasn't.
Gamla Stan
At the Start
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
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Whilst I think Kingman probably justifies being marginal favourite, can someone explain how the Guineas form isn't representative of NOT superiority over Kingman?
I can't understand this...
In the Greenham, Gosden had his horses bang fit and was throwing winners in here, there and everywhere. Hannon meanwhile seemed to need to have a run to get his horses fit. Whilst there's an argument Kingman "bounced" slightly in the Guineas, NOT improved for the run and beat Kingman pretty comfortably (margin would have been greater were it not for drifting over).
The 3/1 offered by Powers looks a maximum bet to me!
I can't understand this...
There have been plenty of big priced winners of classics which have gone on to be top class, Makfi for example.
In the Greenham, Gosden had his horses bang fit and was throwing winners in here, there and everywhere. Hannon meanwhile seemed to need to have a run to get his horses fit. Whilst there's an argument Kingman "bounced" slightly in the Guineas, NOT improved for the run and beat Kingman pretty comfortably (margin would have been greater were it not for drifting over).
The 3/1 offered by Powers looks a maximum bet to me!
There have been any number of people producing myriad explanations for Kingman's Guineas defeat, but (AFAIA) not once since the race has trainer, jockey or Owner's Racing Manager offered even the slightest suggestion that the result shouldn't be taken entirely at face value?
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edgt
Senior Jockey
Nick Morden has an interesting take on this believing that Kingman will not stay the stiff Ascot mile. I would have thought The Curragh to be at least as stiff a test. Time will tell
Just that he was always making ground after being left at the start and had to be ridden to stay with them before being asked to quicken (which he did well). He was like an elastic band that had been overstretched at the end.
Many folk said this after the Guineas. They are wrong. Kingman is a classic speed miler. He gets a mile very well, but was asked to do a lot at Newmarket. Even then he nearly pulled it off. Kingman ought to remain unbeaten at a mile this season
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Favourites chance in the SJP
3yos are advantaged by the WFA in the Sussex
But I'd take him on in a QEII. Stiff straight mile and a long season behind him.
3yos are advantaged by the WFA in the Sussex
But I'd take him on in a QEII. Stiff straight mile and a long season behind him.
Much as I was impressed by NOT both before and after the Guineas I wouldn't expect him to beat Kingman at a mile again. At 10 fulongs I'd expect NOT to come out best though. The way the Guineas was run played to NOT's strengths.
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Aye, at a proper racing pace.
Despite all the rationalising of that result, it remains the only time Kingman has faced a stiff test at the distance - and he flunked it.
I agree
simmo
Senior Jockey
Doyle should have got a roasting on here - after the poor start for Kingman he expended far too much energy trying to regain his position instead of steadily allowing the horse to get himself back in the race and come late like Night of Thunder.
Night of Thunder was passing a horse who had already used energy that he should have retained for the finish, due to the start.
Aye, at a proper racing pace.
Despite all the rationalising of that result, it remains the only time Kingman has faced a stiff test at the distance - and he flunked it.
I don't think you can say the horse flunked it, but perhaps his rider did.
That's how I saw it. Like a rubber band that had been stretched to its limit when it didn't need to be.
EC1
On a break
spot on
There was never more than around a length between he and the winner until running into the dip, and though Doyle might have gone for home a little early at that point, we're only talking fractions here (0.39 secs on sectional times). There's little doubt who was finishing the stronger though, and to expect any different over a course (SJP) approx 4 secs stiffer may be a trifle optimistic.
Their respective prices are undoubtedly predicated on Kingman's perceived improvement in the Irish version, but considering the steady pace in that race was much more in his favour, and against Shifting Power (bred for further, and touted as a French Derby possible after Newmarket) then much of that may be illusion.
Of course, the SJP could turn out to be a small field race with little pace, in which case you'd expect Kingman to blow in, but - given a proper test - I'd be betting against it.