Irish Handicap Hurdlers

Bar the Bull

Bar the Bull

At the Start
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As expected, the Irish handicap hurdlers have been given signigicantly higher ratings for the Cheltenham handicaps than they would have in Ireland.

Most of them have been given ratings of between 6lb and 10lb away from what they would get in Ireland. For example, Eagles Pass last ran 5th of 17 in a handicap at Listowel, off a mark of 124. He now gets a mark of 132. I recognise that he should get more than 124, as the scales are not the same, and who am I to say that 132 isn't right.

What gets more interesting, is the ratings given to horses at the lower and upper end of the scale. I think horses like Splurge and Psycho have been hosed relative to the middle of the road horses.

And horses like Catch Me have been well treated.

The trouble is, very few decent quality Irish horses will run in handicaps, as the English conditions hurdlers are so brutal.
 
I can't work it out. It seems to be a random handicap for Irish horses.

Sonnyanjoe has an Irish rating of 151, yet gets in off 150 in the Coral Cup (he still has no chance).

He seems to be hosing any horses who did their winning in novice hurdles and log grade handicap hurdles over here.
 
Irish hurdlers will have it much tougher.

But in the past years they were given huge presents by the handicaper.
 
From what I understand the handicapper has spoken to his Irish counterpart for guidance, but has essentially produced his own handicap in relation to his own scale. In terms of relative differences it is simply his own assessment of each horse, so a weight difference between horses in Ireland won't necessarily be the same when they run over here.
 
Sonnyanjoe has form in the UK so is probably easier to assess. Ran 2nd at Haydock in November off 147 so 150 is probably about right.
 
Was that the race that the horse (who’s name escapes me) fell at the last when looking like he was about to skate in?
 
Psycho has got a fair penalty for falling at the last at Leopardstown. Obviously he deserves it, but how much can he have left in hand. I haven't access to the ratings but he looks like he's on around 130, compared to 111 the last day (probably equates to about 116 in England, which means he's gone up 14lbs). You'd probably want to be 8 lbs ahead of the handicapper to win this sort of race - did he have 22lbs in hand the last day? I doubt it. I think he's shown his hand at this stage, but maybe that's what Tony Martin wants you to think.

Edit: Oops, thought you were putting Psycho up as an Irish handicap hurdle winner, but I've gone to too much trouble replying to delete it.
 
By Keith Hamer, PA Sport

Adrian McGuinness believes his hand has been forced with Beau Michael, who will tackle the JCB Triumph Hurdle rather than the Fred Winter Juvenile Novices' Handicap Hurdle.
The County Dublin trainer had been considering both races at Cheltenham but once he discovered Beau Michael had been given second top weight of 11st 8lb in the handicap, he opted for the Triumph.
"He has a rating of 123 in Ireland but gets a rating of 140 in England. I can't fathom it out at all. Basically, the English handicapper has made my mind up to go for the Triumph," said McGuinness.
"He definitely goes and the softer the ground the better for him. I wouldn't like to see it too quick, but I can't see that happening. I'm sure it's going to be safe ground."
Beau Michael has won his last three starts, culminating in a Grade Two contest at Fairyhouse last month.
"People knocked the form the last day saying he swished his tail, but it didn't stop him and he's now won a Grade Two and a Grade Three," added McGuinness.
 
I don't know how he's got 140, but his mark seems fair enough compared to those around him in the handicap. Maybe the English handicapper is just being particularly harsh on 4 year olds.
 
I know a few Irish trainers blame a certain AJ Martin for the suspicion in which all their horses are treated
 
The BHB handicapper has been right on top of the hurdlers all season. At first I really thought he was over-reacting to ordinary performances but subsequent events have regularly proved him correct. I'd say current hurdles ratings are about 6lbs higher than they were for horses of equivalent ability a couple of years ago.

The surprising (to me) thing is that the relative ratings for chasers have been fairly consistent in that time.
 
Soft ground and three miles and not a single Irish handicap hurdle figures in the Pertemps. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the week goes but I think it will need to be a particularly well handicapped Irish horse to figure let alone win in these handicaps.
 
Originally posted by Bobbyjo@Mar 4 2008, 02:09 PM
I know a few Irish trainers blame a certain AJ Martin for the suspicion in which all their horses are treated
Click to expand...
I think this is the crux of it. Handicapper is trying to ensure a level playing field - vvery difficult with Irish 'plot horses'
[not that we don't have a few of those trainers too...]
 
Originally posted by Headstrong+Mar 13 2008, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Headstrong @ Mar 13 2008, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bobbyjo@Mar 4 2008, 02:09 PM
I know a few Irish trainers blame a certain AJ Martin for the suspicion in which all their horses are treated
Click to expand...
I think this is the crux of it. Handicapper is trying to ensure a level playing field - vvery difficult with Irish 'plot horses'
[not that we don't have a few of those trainers too...] [/b][/quote]
I can't agree.

The BHB handicapper's analysis of the form has nothing to do with AJ Martin. He's just done what no previous handicapper managed - get a proper handle on all the hurdlers on both sides of the Irish Sea.
 
What the British handicapper has done is respond the the complaints that he recieved from individual British trainers and their association regarding how well Irish handicapers were doing.

It is something that has been said to the Irish flat handicaper regarding the success of British handicaps in any of their ventures into handicaps over here. The Irish handicapper just uses the British mark (as is the case over jumps also).
 
Is it an acceptable handle when all the Irish handicap hurdlers are beaten out of sight?! So they're not good enough when beaten but well handicapped when they win!
 
Originally posted by Bobbyjo@Mar 13 2008, 07:17 PM
Is it an acceptable handle when all the Irish handicap hurdlers are beaten out of sight?! So they're not good enough when beaten but well handicapped when they win!
Click to expand...
Some will be beaten because the trainers want them beaten (and out of sight). The UK hurdlers have been putting up with it for a couple of seasons. It's really only improving types that are winning the big handicap hurdles.

The Irish might easily take the County tomorrow with entirely unexposed types (Wanango or Psycho) although I'm on Caracciola now that the handicapper has dropped it to a 'winnable' mark.
 
So are you asking for Irish horses to be treated more leniently than UK horses?

Barker has been rated on the ability he's shown in public, as have all the entries. If Barker's connections feel they no longer have an advantage it's their prerogative not to run it. Perhaps he could have run, shown improved form and still not have won and ended up being raised another 5 or 6 pounds for not winning so not running is arguably the right decision.

However, there are plenty of handicappers out there who've been hiked regularly for not winning and who still turn up at the big races.
 
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