Is Franchoek A Good Thing?

Maruco

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Do we really think Franchoek is the stone cold certainty the market says he is?

A few considerations. Franchoek has continued to beat what is in front of him and his form around Cheltenham specifically is very hard to knock. Alun King has been round the block a few times now with Triumph winners recently with Katchit last year who went an almost identical route to Franchoek and Penance before him. When you add those factors together it's not hard to see why Franchoek is being punted and is one of the bankers of the Festival in many peoples eyes.

I take a different view though. Franchoek is no Katchit. For a start he was an out and out stayer on the flat. No doubting he was decent and may well have been able to win over shorter in the right race, but I can't get away form the fact that he saved his best performances over the furthest distances on the level. That for me is not the profile of a horse that is best served over two miles over hurdles. I then want to question what he has actually beaten around Cheltenham. Yes he's won his races well enough, but are those he's despatched good enough to go close to winning a Triumph? Subjective I suppose, but I don't think so. The fact that Franchoek has followed the Katchit route could actually mean that some of the more likely candidates have avoided taking him on with trainers assuming he is Katchit Mark II and not wanting to get beaten when there are other options. The other worry for me is that his style of racing is entirely different to Katchit (and Detroit before him for that matter). Those two were better horses held up just off the back of a strong pace, and both posesses the finishing speed to win. Franchoek on the other hand is one of those horses that grinds the opposition into the ground to win, essentially outstaying the opposition which fits with his flat profile. A typical Triumph winner doesn't do it from the head of affairs.

In a strongly run Triumph where there is plenty of cover for a horse that will appreciate a strong pace but needs to be ridden for a finishing kick surely there is a very real danger that Franchoek will set it up for something to come flying past him up the hill. Somthing with the touch of class that I'm not convinced Franchoek has. A string of wins is not necessariy a crucial thing in the profile of a Triumph winner. Ex-flat horses often take time to acclimatise and be seen at their best over hurdles. Detroit City was a case in point, and he turned out to possibly be the best Triumph winner in recent memory, but you wouldn't have been in a rush to back him after his debut over timber when he was beaten forty plus lengths at Warwick. But boy what a horse he turned out to be when the penny dropped.

So what are the alternatives. Firstly I prefer to look for a horse who did it's winning on the flat over 10-12f's. A horse that may possibly have flopped somewhere during it's early race(s) but has shown in it's most recent prep that is has improved to something like the level you'd ecpect form a Triumph winner. You'd like the selection to have the important 1 after it's name last time out, although Scolardy has proved in recent seasons you can still win without it. You would also expect it to be won by a horse who has had at least three runs over hurdles, and the market won't get it massively wrong with only a couple winning at 20/1 in the last decade. That may seem like a big price but essentially we are still talking about a horse in the top third of the betting and not totally unfancied.

Using that criteria, three runs would discount the second and third favourites Celestial Halo and Binoculor, and Celestial Halo was also turned over last time which means he has to defy the stat that only Scolarly did in recent renewals. They would both however have to defy a stat of only having two runs over hurdles which goes back further than the eighteen years of records I keep.

There are three names at the two week stage that keep coming back to me for entirely different reasons.

Firstly Ashkazar. Now we have NRNB he's worth a serious look. There have been whispers that he may go for the Supreme, but if he goes for this he is a serious candidate. People will point to he fact that Franchoek beat him at Chepstow, but that was desperate ground and he looked an infinitely better horse on good to soft last time and both his breeding and his action would suggest that quicker ground at the Festival will help not hinder. He would have a chance of turning the Chepstow form around with Franchoek who won't necessarily be seen to best effect on fastish ground so with doubts whether he goes here or not 12s/14's e/w NRNB would seem like a sensible bet.

Second one for me is Pierrot Lunaire. Yes he was beaten by Binoculor on Saturday, but he left the impression that there is possibly more to come and the stiffer track at Cheltenham could bring it out of him. If that's so he could turn the form around with Binoculor. He has to defy the stat that Scolardy beat but with 20's widely available so what. I reckon he is at least good enough to place and he's another e/w bet that seems stupidly obvious. His price is only that big because Celestial Halo is widely believed to be the Nicholls number one.

The third horse is a bit of a sideball really andwould line up totally under the radar. He's not certain to run here and may end up in the Fred Winter as he has a mark that would leave him with a great chance in that race. But I like this one. He's a horse who has improved with every run. He's available at 66/1 and if he runs here he is sure to go off at the 20's or less which fits the market profile. So far he's raced on ground softer than ideal and he still fits the ideal profile. He looks pretty unexposed and there is the potential for more to come. The horse is with Phillip Hobbs who hardly has a poor record in the race and I'm not sure he's got anything better as an alternative despite some high-profile expensive purchases including The Grey Berry, so I would suggest an e/w nrnb on Hibiki at huge odds wouldn't be the worst bet in the world. He's freely available at 66/1 at the moment and given he may not line up NRNB is the perfect safety net.

One additional note. They didn't geld him when they bought him which is often a sign that they think he has genuine potential. He's nicely bred, and he was already looking highly progressive on flat before he was bought, so maybe they are thinking he has some future stud value. And if he were proven good enough to win this, he'd be another Hobbs Cesarawitch candidate presumably. If he isn't he looked progressive enough on the flat to switch back anyway.

Whether Franhoek is a good thing or not I think he is very poor value unless you were on at early prices, so surely it's worth opposing him isn't it?
 
I backed him at 6/1 around the time of the Celestial Halo hype. Not a big bet, but I am happy with it.

I do think there are better value bets out there, but he sets a good standard. Ashkazar would be a big danger for me, as I am not having Binocular or CH.

Ce'st Ca is also of interest at a bigger price NRNB I had a score last week.
 
I obviously hope you are wrong but wouldn't put you off a little bit ew on Hibiki NRNB who I'm sure is better than his form implies.
He has a few entries this week so will need to win well if he turns up to justify taking part in the Triumph.
I think he'd be very interesting in the Fred Winter myself although I see The Grey Berry has only been given a mark of 119 which will tempt connections if he can get in.
Pierrot Luinare is more likely to go to Aintree it would seem so I think you need the NRNB concession at this stage with that one for sure.
 
Great right up Maruco and while I feel is vunerable I would be sure where the definite danger is going to come from. I personally think he will be ridden slightly off the pace in the Triumph itself. Clearly he will be handy enough but I would imagine there will be enough early pace for him to get a lead which should help.
 
Thanks Arkwright. Yes I've backed all three NRNB as all three prices reflect the possibility that they won't line up. I'd be surprised if Nicholls didn't let Pierrot Lunaire line up though, he looked as though he'd appreciate a stiffer course off a strong gallop.

6/1 looks fair enough about Franchoek Barry, as I said his form is solid around Cheltenham and I know Warblers figures have him ahead of the others on what we've seen so far. He's not having Ashkazar one little bit on the clock though, but I reckon there's a whole lot more to come from him on quicker ground at Cheltenham.
 
Great write up there.

I personally have him down as one of the few 'bankers' at the festival this year.

I have been really impressed with the horse and he will gallop all day. He has a decent turn of pace too from what i have seen.
 
Lifted this from another forum for you all to consider. Not sure I understand it meself :P

My main theory why Franchoek will not win the Triumph.
2007 10.3
2006 9.9
2005 8.2
2004 9.7
2003 9.6
2002 10.0
2000 13.6
1999 11.1
1998 10.1

These figues are the breeding distances of the winners sires of the Triumph Hurdle, now Franchoek has a figure of 11.5 and as you can see only one hosre has exceeded that figure and that was 8 years ago so there is every indication that recently a Triumph Hurdle winner needs speed in his breeding

His main rivals
Binocular 6.0-seems much too low
Callisto Moon 8.5-right figure but has been beaten by Franchoek twice although got closer on the 2nd occasion
Ashkazar 11.3 -too high
Celestial Halo - Too high
Five Dream 11.4 too high
Harper Valley 7.7 too low
Lemon Silk 9.7-serious contender and a good E/W prospect

Franchoek damsire had a figure of 12.0 only 2 of those already mentioned were higher than that again the average figure was closer to the 10.0
 
I think Franchoek has an excellent chance.

Maruco's dismissal of the horses Franchoek has beaten seems harsh. Won In The Dark, beaten 7l by him in November, was an unlucky loser of a Graded hurdle at Leopardstown over Christmas and there is a string of subsequent winners who have finished in Franchoek's wake this season. I don't think anything that ran in the juvenile hurdle at Kempton on Saturday has similar claims.

One horse who might trouble him is Beau Michael, who is just 6 points behind Franchoek on RPR ratings and has the best collateral form of the Irish entrants. The negatives about him are that like Franchoek he too is a front runner and he has not yet posted a significant speed figure. He is by Medicean, however, which makes it likely that he will improve on better ground, and he has shown a turn of foot in some of his races to get away from his pursuers turning into the straight.

His trainer is not well known in England but I hold him in good regard and if he were better known Beau Michael would surely be a shorter price than 14/1 - 16/1.
 
If 5/2 about backing the Triumph Hurdle winner floats your boat good luck to you.I have backed Cest Ca at as long as 50s on betfair.Not saying he will win but he will be a lot shorter on the day.
 
Fascinating read Maruco, and I agree that Hibiki is a good e/w - in fact I'm waiting til I know what race he's going for and then I'll prob place back him. He was a strapping great 3yr old at Stan's, very powerful, by the great Montjeu and almost black like him - his first races read 3,2,1 iirc, and he's taken well to hurdles.

I've got a bit on Franchoek at 12 on Bf, an e/w at 12/1 with PP, and a bit on Binocular at 11 which I may lay off. Is there a third JP entry which might be used to make the pace? Binocular has an entry at Newbury on Friday iirc [cld be Sat], I wonder if he will run? I don't think myself that he will run in the Triumph. I feel NH might run him at the weekend and save him for Aintree or Punchestown.

I like Beau Michel too. But Franchoek is special imo, and is the kind of horse with the kind of attitude which can buck the stats
 
I would imagine Binocular's entry on Friday was in case for any reason he was unable to run last Saturday.
He'll need to improve his jumping to have any chance of beating Franchoek.

I was told about Hibiki before he ran over hurdles and did my proverbials on him on his first two runs (of course I didn't back him at Ludlow!)

One advantage Franchoek has over most of his nearest rivals is proven course form at Chelters,that must count for something although it's not essential.
 
I've won quite a bit on Hibiki already, but that's because I follow the Moore stable closely [and know all the horses 'personally', so I tend to follow them even after they've left Stan]. I hope he goes for the FW in fact... I'm happy with my bet on Franchoek, he is the most solid option imo. He owes me nothing, anyway! I think Clopf is the dark horse of the race, I rated him very highly last season and it's just a shame he fell lto.
 
Sorry Grey, the intention wasn't to dismiss Franchoek's chances. He clearly has a favourites chance. I had intended to make that point in my first paragraph but perhaps I didn't get the point across well enough. My intention was to set about proving he may be vulnerable and not the banker that many feel he is, and that if you weren't on at earlier prices you are now almost compelled to take him on.

I really wanted to offer some alternatives and my reasoning, and hopefully identify horses that still offer value e/w if they are to be beaten by Franchoek.

I agree entirely with Headstrong re. Hibiki. If he goes to the Fred Winter off 122 he must have a leading chance, but he's entered up all over the place between Thursday and Sunday, so if he wins the way they would need him to win well or his mark for the Fred Winter would be significantly less attractive and they would almost be compelled to go for The Triumph. If he gets turned over at this stage you'd simply have to put your hands up and say he isn't good enough. If he were Fred Winter bound I would have thought they would be more inclined to protect his mark and send him straight to Cheltenham, so if he runs I would take it that they regard him as a Triumph horse. My main concern is that it is very late for him to have his final prep.

C'est Ca and Beau Micheal are both interesting alternatives. I considered both. With C'est Ca I wondered whether he might be ground dependant. He's clearly improved massively from when Willie was running him on the flat, but has that coincided with him seeing deep ground? Don't know is the answer but I couldn't put anyone off backing him, because if he can translate his recent form to fastish ground he must have a shout. Beau Michael's form is definitely decent, but I worry about him possibly needing to do it from the front. There are quite a few who seem to like to make the running and I just feel that they may go too quick which would suit the hold up horses and may ruin the chances of horses like Beau Michael. As it happens I have an earlier bet on him which I made when he won at Punchestown a month or so ago, and I've been in two minds whether to stick or twist over the last few days.
 
I'm afraid the race has got 'swerve' written all over it to me. I'm not sure its necessarily a vintage renewal, but it sure as hell looks competitive and I've got a whole clutch of them within a few lengths of each other (headed by Francheok). I'm desperate to try and make a case for Siege of Ennis having discovered that he ran the final 7F's of the novice hurdle faster than Sizing Europe did in winning the AIG, but I can't quite do it. He'd be my each way long shot at about 50/1 but I'm inclined to think he'll go the handicap route.

Perhaps Maruco would be so good as to share with us just what his excellent record in this race is :P and then we'd know to take no notice of him. In fairness, its fractionally better than mine in the Arkle, which for some bloody reason defies me every year
 
Fair enough, Maruco, our views are similar.

Franchoek is the most likely winner of the race and any betting strategy has to take that into account.
 
I'd picked that up after having posted, and noted that the trainer has had the sense to go for the Fred Winter. He stands a better chance there, and I might still be tempted to believe he can run a place, but on balance I don't think the horse is good enough
 
Originally posted by Colin Phillips@Feb 26 2008, 07:52 AM
Don't think Clopf is qualified in the Triumph, Heads. :what:
Sorry I meant Clopf could be the the dark horse in the Arkle - - - always take anything I say on a Tuesday night with a large pinch of salt, it's my night out in the pub :rolleyes:

Thanks for the heads up re Hibiki Arkers, will be interesting to see what Hobbs has to say about intentions
I've had a small W&P for the FW, and a place bet in the Triumph
 
Originally posted by Maruco@Feb 25 2008, 03:35 PM
Firstly Ashkazar. Now we have NRNB he's worth a serious look. There have been whispers that he may go for the Supreme, but if he goes for this he is a serious candidate. People will point to he fact that Franchoek beat him at Chepstow, but that was desperate ground and he looked an infinitely better horse on good to soft last time and both his breeding and his action would suggest that quicker ground at the Festival will help not hinder. He would have a chance of turning the Chepstow form around with Franchoek who won't necessarily be seen to best effect on fastish ground so with doubts whether he goes here or not 12s/14's e/w NRNB would seem like a sensible bet.

Ashkazar is by Sadler's Wells by a Darshaan mare so you would have though softer going would be his preference.

Franchoek won on Good to Firm twice on the Flat in the summer, achieving his best ratings. That suggests fast ground may actually bring out the best in him.
 
Ashkazar is going for the Imperial Cup at Sandown on Saturday, so presumably the Pipes are hoping to 'do the double' again this year, as they did with Gaspara.

The other horse in the race with a chance of doing that is Victram [also aimed at the County Hurdle, with Andrew Lynch jocked up]
 
Remaining horses in the Triumph:

Ashkazar (FR) 4.g
Bayonyx (IRE) 4.g
Beau Michael 4.g
Binocular (FR) 4.g
Callisto Moon 4.g
Celestial Halo (IRE) 4.g
Dal Cais (IRE) 4.c
Dansimar 4.f
Diego Velasquez (IRE) 4.g
Dorset Square (IRE) 4.g
Five Dream (FR) 4.g
Franchoek (IRE) 4.g
Goochie (IRE) 4.f
Harper Valley (IRE) 4.g
Hypnotic Vibes (IRE) 4.g
Lemon Silk (IRE) 4.g
Mamlook (IRE) 4.g
Mr Crystal (FR) 4.g
Personal Column 4.g
Pires 4.g
Prince Erik 4.g
Quinte du Chatelet (FR) 4.g
Regional Counsel 4.c
Sebadee (IRE) 4.g
Seeking The Buck (USA) 4.c
Serabad (FR) 4.g
Siege of Ennis (IRE) 4.g
Silmi 4.c
Silverhand (IRE) 4.g
Sivota (IRE) 4.g
Songe (FR) 4.c
Special Day (FR) 4.c
Spiderback (IRE) 4.g
Squadron 4.g
Star of Angels 4.g
Temlett (IRE) 4.g
Trachonitis (IRE) 4.c
Won In The Dark (IRE) 4.g
 
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