Israel/Palestine
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trudij
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Mental isnt it. I have my doubts that the troops that have come (and are due to come in the next 6 months) out of Iraq and Afghanistan will be keen to get involved in yet another conflict - and I cant see GB trying to send our lot somewhere else when hes so near an election....
Ive only managed to catch the end of the news bulletins - what has kicked it off again?? I thought it had all gone quiet??
Ive only managed to catch the end of the news bulletins - what has kicked it off again?? I thought it had all gone quiet??
Its very simple...
Although we will get Jeremy Bowen holding teddy bears and lots of pics of injured kids, the straightforward fact is that if you pick a fight with someone more pwoerful than you...expect to get your head kicked in
if Belgium started lobbing missiles continously at our east coast towns, you think the UK goverment could just sit on its hands and do nothing? I would expect them to bomb the fuck out of them
the sadness is that the palestinians felt they had no option than to elect the racist genocide calling Hamas because the Fatah administration had been so hopeless. From that moment on it was always going to be trouble
Israel had to take action.
Although we will get Jeremy Bowen holding teddy bears and lots of pics of injured kids, the straightforward fact is that if you pick a fight with someone more pwoerful than you...expect to get your head kicked in
if Belgium started lobbing missiles continously at our east coast towns, you think the UK goverment could just sit on its hands and do nothing? I would expect them to bomb the fuck out of them
the sadness is that the palestinians felt they had no option than to elect the racist genocide calling Hamas because the Fatah administration had been so hopeless. From that moment on it was always going to be trouble
Israel had to take action.
No...Obviously not. Pretty facile response but might as well answer i suppose, in case any simpletons read the above
The IRA were not the elected representitives and i would be pretty sure that the vast majority of the population of dublin were against bombings of Harrods and Guildford etc. ireland also did not have a goverment with leaders who had called for the eradication of all anglo saxons worldwide
The IRA were not the elected representitives and i would be pretty sure that the vast majority of the population of dublin were against bombings of Harrods and Guildford etc. ireland also did not have a goverment with leaders who had called for the eradication of all anglo saxons worldwide
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Israel carried out similar acts long before Hamas were "in power" in Gaza.
This is about here and now. Israel hasnt been whiter than white but also did (rightly) strike at Hezbollah.
If Israel isnt attacked it will not attack. whatever anyone thinks of the present geographical boundaries, that is the case
Hamas has baited Israel into attacking. If it was at all bothered about its civilians lives then it wouldnt have attacked israel continuously for the last two years. It has got the reponse it wanted in many ways (and true to form Jeremy Bowens reporting was a disgrace at lunchtime..) but Israel HAS to respond too
and why the "in power"? Of course they are....they were elected FFS
If Israel isnt attacked it will not attack. whatever anyone thinks of the present geographical boundaries, that is the case
Hamas has baited Israel into attacking. If it was at all bothered about its civilians lives then it wouldnt have attacked israel continuously for the last two years. It has got the reponse it wanted in many ways (and true to form Jeremy Bowens reporting was a disgrace at lunchtime..) but Israel HAS to respond too
and why the "in power"? Of course they are....they were elected FFS
Grasshopper
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Clivex, the problem is wholly and inextricably linked to Israel's "present geographical boundaries". This issue is at the very core of every single problem in Judea/Palestine, and it cannot be swept to one side, as if it is a mere irrelevance. Until that question is addressed, there will not be any peace.
Hamas are fools, because they invite retribution onto themselves. Their rocket launches don't achieve anything, and are nothing more than nihilistic posturing, imo. But the retribution meted out by Israel is not proportionate, and they should rightly be called to account on it.
Your analogy is all wrong, in a technical sense, anyway
What would your reaction be if Belgium invaded parts of Norfolk, claimed it as part of Belgium all along, and they forced the good burgers of Norfolk to live in Cambridgeshire. Would you find this acceptable, or would you expect the people who originally lived in Norfolk to do something about it?
Hamas are fools, because they invite retribution onto themselves. Their rocket launches don't achieve anything, and are nothing more than nihilistic posturing, imo. But the retribution meted out by Israel is not proportionate, and they should rightly be called to account on it.
Your analogy is all wrong, in a technical sense, anyway
What would your reaction be if Belgium invaded parts of Norfolk, claimed it as part of Belgium all along, and they forced the good burgers of Norfolk to live in Cambridgeshire. Would you find this acceptable, or would you expect the people who originally lived in Norfolk to do something about it?
trackside528
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Not sure, Grassy. I think Clive's point that Hamas has in many respects got the response it wanted is a valid point. Israel's response has been unsurprisingly disproportionate, which suits the Hamas leadership down to the ground if you ask me.
Will be very interesting to see how the shifting of the tide that is seemingly inevitable in Israeli politics affects the situation - let's just hope the government doesn't take a hard-right turn.
Grasshopper
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Agree that it suits Hamas politically, tracks - but it doesn't mean that their actions are not foolish.
Whats gone is gone. The point is valid. Regardless of whether Belgium thouhht this or that was historically "wrong" , if they attacked i would expect the UKs response to be completely disproportionate. Thats war isnt it? FFS , whats israel supposed to do? Only take action when Hamas's shells actually hit a childrens school or something? Or when Iran supplies them with bigger weapons?
The flaw in your arguement is that your assuming what Israel is doing is going to stop the problem...for a few weeks maybe. If anything it will make Israel's problems even worse.
and if they sat and did nothing? Apart from the fact that they would not be protecting their own citizens (which any developed country has an obligation to do) how far would Hamas push it? They upped the attacks significantly in recent weeks.
If Israel is just going to sit their and accept some sort of victim mentality (highly unlikely of course), then the jew hating arabs would become steadily more emboldened.
There is no flaw with any argument that proposes that a state has the right to protect its own citizens.
If Israel is just going to sit their and accept some sort of victim mentality (highly unlikely of course), then the jew hating arabs would become steadily more emboldened.
There is no flaw with any argument that proposes that a state has the right to protect its own citizens.
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Grasshopper
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Does such a state also have the right to steal land from another state without any punitive measures being exacted upon it, clivex?
As for your "What's gone is gone" argument, would you extend the same laissez-faire, shelf-life attitude to the Holocaust, or to September 11th?
Whether you like it or not, Israel's occupation of Palestinian land continues (present tense, not past) to be in violation of international law and several UN resolutions. Until this situation is redressed, Palestinians can be expected to reject the occupation, and to fight against it.
How could they be expected to do anything else? If they didn't reject it or fight against it, they would be accepting the very "victim mentality" you strongly suggest Israel avoid.
Your argument on this subject remains a swiss-cheese; full of contradiction, no little hypocrisy, and apparently unable and/or unwilling to confront the fundamental root cause of the problem.
As for your "What's gone is gone" argument, would you extend the same laissez-faire, shelf-life attitude to the Holocaust, or to September 11th?
Whether you like it or not, Israel's occupation of Palestinian land continues (present tense, not past) to be in violation of international law and several UN resolutions. Until this situation is redressed, Palestinians can be expected to reject the occupation, and to fight against it.
How could they be expected to do anything else? If they didn't reject it or fight against it, they would be accepting the very "victim mentality" you strongly suggest Israel avoid.
Your argument on this subject remains a swiss-cheese; full of contradiction, no little hypocrisy, and apparently unable and/or unwilling to confront the fundamental root cause of the problem.
Luke. You really are out of your depth arent you? Why do you bother? As ever, you offer nothing
Palestinians have had the offers of solutions. Oslo accord went a long way towards almost all demands. But what did they prefer? Yes, the "victim" mentality allied with continuing corruption and incompetence
Israel "occupied" those areas after it was militarily attacked with the intention to wipe the state out. just as some leaders in the area still seem to have as an objective. i couldnt give a fck what the UN think and nor should the israelis
they should now work towards another solution and within israel i would be sure that that is the ideal. but that will remain impossible with hamas in control. i think some in the west ought to forget about Jeremy Bowen and his teddies and have a closer look at what this orgainsiation's beliefs are. They are scum.
Oh really? And what do you suggest israel should be doing then? nothing? "negotiating" with those that believe "that all jews should be wiped off the face of the earth"?
Israel will in time resolve the west bank. That has been progressing. Dealing with an islamist state? Not a chance
Palestinians have had the offers of solutions. Oslo accord went a long way towards almost all demands. But what did they prefer? Yes, the "victim" mentality allied with continuing corruption and incompetence
Israel "occupied" those areas after it was militarily attacked with the intention to wipe the state out. just as some leaders in the area still seem to have as an objective. i couldnt give a fck what the UN think and nor should the israelis
they should now work towards another solution and within israel i would be sure that that is the ideal. but that will remain impossible with hamas in control. i think some in the west ought to forget about Jeremy Bowen and his teddies and have a closer look at what this orgainsiation's beliefs are. They are scum.
Oh really? And what do you suggest israel should be doing then? nothing? "negotiating" with those that believe "that all jews should be wiped off the face of the earth"?
Israel will in time resolve the west bank. That has been progressing. Dealing with an islamist state? Not a chance
Grasshopper
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Clivex, your position seems to be that Israeli aggression and occupation is acceptable, but that resistance to it is not.
Like I say - inconsistent and hypocritical.
Like I say - inconsistent and hypocritical.
you dont seem to follow my posts at all do you?
If the palestinians wanted to ditch the occupation, then why elect hamas? You really think that that was a signal for progress? And has Hamas done anything to signal moving on?
Aggression? So thats what defending your own land and population is called then?
unbelievable...
Luke. I avoid him generally and if i had time would disect his "reporting", but suffice to say...you know where his sympathies lie...big time. Thats ok if you are watching fox news or reading the Guardian, but this is the supposedly impartial BBC. The bbc is watched on that basis
If the palestinians wanted to ditch the occupation, then why elect hamas? You really think that that was a signal for progress? And has Hamas done anything to signal moving on?
Aggression? So thats what defending your own land and population is called then?
unbelievable...
Luke. I avoid him generally and if i had time would disect his "reporting", but suffice to say...you know where his sympathies lie...big time. Thats ok if you are watching fox news or reading the Guardian, but this is the supposedly impartial BBC. The bbc is watched on that basis
Grasshopper
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Isn't that exactly what the PLO and Hamas are engaged in, with their resistance to Israeli occupation?
It's your failure to spot this flaw in your argument, that is always your undoing when it comes to this question.
Absolute rubbish. Cant believe that. For a start "occupation" is quite different to continual attack. And under this "occupation" didnt they elect the nazi admiring Hamas? Some occupation isnt it that allows elections of that kind? Still, they could bugger off to practically any other islamic country and forget about elections altogther
Again, for the third time, what should israel do when its population is under continued attack?
Again, for the third time, what should israel do when its population is under continued attack?
Luke
His "compassion" is selective. He should be explaining the facts and reporting on the situation rather than walking around with fcking teddy bears and droning on about dead babies.
We know what thats all about (and theres always been a whiff of playing that up when israel areinvolved )
Any reporter should be able to report a fact based neuatral line
Grasshopper
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You have an enduring ability to talk unutterable shite on this subject, clivex.
You actually believe that the occupation of Palestinian land is nothing to do with the problem. Either that, or you think it is an inconvenience that the Palestinians should put up with.
The problems of 1967 are the same as those of 1977, 1987, 1997 and 2007 - that of the occupation. You consider the occupation to be inconsequential, and instead trot out your customary line about Hamas, whilst making no concession to the fact that the same problems prevailed long before Hamas became a political factor.
Your dismissal of the occupation as the root cause of the problem, shows what little comprehension you have of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Indeed, you have even suggested in a previous post that the Isreali's have the right to defend "their" land......which it is clearly not under every applicable law.
It is your refusal to address this key point - the one of right and ownership - that blows holes in your every other argument, which are generally focused on the here-today tactics employed by Hamas, and take no account of the wider issues.
It seems we go round this loop two or three times a year, and to be honest, I half expected us to end-up in this place when I saw the original post. Indeed, our series of exchanges on this subject are reflective of the entrenched positions of the various parties in Palestine: lots of hot air, and little in the way of progress. I shall therefore withdraw at this juncture.
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you havent even got a basic grasp of the facts. why post when you dont even follow the story. Shall i explain it slowly? hamas is firing rockets into israel. It is "their" land.
the so called "occupation" does not excuse attacks on israeli civilians on a daily basis. It is obviously counterproductive and a clear indication that hamas does not want to negotiate any settlment but wants to keep to its aims of all out war (dragging iran and others in) with the clear intention of "wiping" israel "off the map". In fact their leaders believe that jews should be eradicated full stop.Your grasp is hopeless. As anyone following this well knows, there is every chance of movement away from "occupation" if the palestinians were not in thrall to genoicdal islamists
that is the wider issue. anyone with any knowledge of islamist beliefs would be very clear on that
you again do not come up with a suggestion...even a half baked one..as to what israel should do
You should withdraw. it is embarrasing having to correct basic detail time and again