Judging the going

EC1

EC1

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How do people do this of an afternoon?

For anyone that uses jockeys opinions..read on from Ponty this afternoon,,RP content:

There was a wide range of views on the going among jockeys riding in the opener.
Lee Topliss said: "It is good ground," Paul Hanagan said: "It is on the soft side," David Allan said: "I'd say it is good to soft" and Sam Hitchcott said: "It is soft."

so we have either Good...or Soft...or owt in between

surely they should know??
 
Their opinions may be tainted by how well/badly their mounts fared, respective to the called-conditions and pre-race expectations?
 
Roddy Owen said:
Whats the matter with the stick, clerk of the course will always tell you if you ring him
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because the going stick gives a few anomalies imo

Fakenham......................Good,g/s in places........................8.5
Leicester (Hdl)................Good to soft,sft in places..............7.4
Folkestone (Chse)..........Good.............................................6.2

8.0 is Good..and yet there is a 2.3 difference just in that example
 
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Colin Phillips said:
Isn't that down to the difference in soil type?
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but isn't that more confusing than everCol?

Good going should be the same everywhere..basically the reading given as 8.0 is the same everywhere as far as the horse feeling the surface is concerned

if 8.0 is Good at one track but soft at another...then what help is it?
 
Couldn't you record stick readings for each track, compare them with your going calculations and compile the significance of the stick readings at each track?
 
of course..but you shouldn't need to

it would be a nonsense if you did at Newbury for instance..which isn't an isolated case

Newbury

22-Sep-12 Good to Firm (Firm in places) 8.2
21-Sep-12 Good to Firm 7.2
18-Aug-12 Good to Firm 7.1
17-Aug-12 Good 6.7
15-Aug-12 Good (Good to Soft in places) 5.8
05-Aug-12 Good to Firm (Good in places) 7.1
14-Jul-12 Heavy (Soft in places) 4.9
13-Jul-12 Soft (Heavy in places) 6.5 on Thursday at 16:15
05-Jul-12 Good to Soft 6.2
26-Jun-12 Good to Soft (Good in places) 6.3
14-Jun-12 Good to Soft (Soft in places) 6.3
26-May-12 Good to Firm (Firm in places back straight) 8.1

so we have Soft/heavy being 6.5 and G/F being 7.1...and Good being 6.7..?????

there is no spread at all there between soft and G/f...and yet the difference in time at Newbury between soft and G/F is same as anywhere else...and it should show with the stick...9.0 being G/f..and something like 6.4 for soft
 
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I am currently talking to the Clerk at Uttoxeter about tonight. going stick 6.5. normally soft. Official going good to soft, soft in places
 
Timing the first race and comparing to an expectation. Tricky though, as the first races are often for 2yo's and the time often isn't through until the start of the second race.

Watching for dust or sods being tossed about. To be honest, I think you can go by eye to some degree of accuracy.

I think you'll be more or less there by coupling those two together.

Can't believe the guy with the stick is still used. They should use something of a pneumatic nature, so the clerk stands on the base, presses a button which delivers a downward thrust of universal pressure, which in turn would give a comparable reading right across the board.

I guess thats asking a lot though, I mean it's only 2013 after all, lets not get ahead of ourselves.
 
Just my view, but the going stick gives a much more uniform and reliable reading than most COC's.
It does exactly what it's designed to do, but it's perjured by Clerks calling their ground as near perfect as stretching credibility to the limit allows.
It's infinitely better than what we had before!
 
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EC1 said:
i'd say times of course...anyone use a more reliable way?
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Times are of course a reasonable way of assessing going. Although we should be wary of equating the fastest times with the fastest ground. Most horses won't let themselves down on very fast ground, so faster times can actually be more likely on going which is not at the extreme end of the scale.

However, times only give you an idea after the race has been run. Since I'm looking for clues ahead of racing I tend to use Turftrax.
 
I assumed the going stick was still just the clerk of the course or someone he sent out, to go for a walk and stick in the going stick in various places.

Looking at the Newbury readings EC put up, you can assume he's a heavy handed so and so.

Have things changed?

Turftax only look at certain meetings though, Steve, or has that changed as well?
 
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The going stick dends entirely on the user....I get totally different readings to someone else walkIng lime kilns at the same time as me on a morning. Then there's the variations if you walk the centre or rails etc.
 
Diligent COC's (Ascot and York in particular) often give readings right across the straight course, with separate readings for the round.
Far too many others might well stick a finger in the air.
 
Ted Walsh has just said he can't find any trace of yielding or soft in the ground at Galway after walking the track (official description good to yielding). When it was pointed out to him that the first race was 7 seconds slower than last year, he said he didn't care if it was half an hour slower.
 
Grey said:
Ted Walsh has just said he can't find any trace of yielding or soft in the ground at Galway after walking the track (official description good to yielding). When it was pointed out to him that the first race was 7 seconds slower than last year, he said he didn't care if it was half an hour slower.
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That's Ted alright. Entertaining, opinionated and unwilling to go through a thought process when a knee-jerk reaction will do just as well.
 
every winner at galway tonight have got soft ground form and the times support some give in the ground

another case of the seemingly worse place to judge the ground is to actually be at the course
 
CPGagie said:
I assumed the going stick was still just the clerk of the course or someone he sent out, to go for a walk and stick in the going stick in various places.

Looking at the Newbury readings EC put up, you can assume he's a heavy handed so and so.

Have things changed?

Turftax only look at certain meetings though, Steve, or has that changed as well?
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Came across this while searching for sectionals; might clear a few points up.

http://www.turftrax.co.uk/goingstick.html
 
I see, last time I saw racing in the UK other than replays was before this was made mandatory. I'm sure the old stick prior to this was known as the going stick also.
I thought they must have simply put markers on them across the board which explained the 8.4 etc, though it does tie in with Turftrax descriptions now I think about it.

Still not very good though, in fact, it's hard to justify its use after the examples given.
 
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