L'Ami

I have great respect for Enda Bolger's skills, but i just can't see him taking to cross country. I'd be more inclined to think he will be prepared for the Grand National via the hunter route.
 
Also off to Ireland is Or Noir De Somoza - the only one of Mulryan´s horses (that have left Arnaud Chaille-Chaille) going to Ireland. No trainer confirme yet for him or Cyrlight, Mid Dancer, Zaiyad etc.
 
Melendez said:
I have great respect for Enda Bolger's skills, but i just can't see him taking to cross country. I'd be more inclined to think he will be prepared for the Grand National via the hunter route.
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I doubt after falling and almost killing both himself and Mick Fitz last year that JP would want to run him in the race again - he's had two goes already and will always be too highly weighted anyway. I can't see any reason why he wouldn't take to Cross Country, he's a good sturdy type of stayer just lacking a bit of finishing speed these days
 
Cyrlight broke down in the 2006 Jousellin, returning lame after the race. He was later found to have sustained a hairline fracture of the pelvic bone. He returned over hurdles the following summer, where he fell in his only start, and hasn't seen the track since.

Anyone who looks at Cyrlight's record, and thinks he was nothing more than a talking horse, is doing him an injustice, and tends towards a lack of respect about the French Jumps scene. Let's not forget that all of The Fellow, First Gold, Kauto Star, Neptune Collonges, Master Minded, as well as a host of other top-class performers, all started their careers over there.

That said, Mulryan & Charlie-Charlie should have run Cyrlight as a 5yo in the King George when they had the chance. Dipsticks.
 
Grasshopper said:
Cyrlight broke down in the 2006 Jousellin, returning lame after the race. He was later found to have sustained a hairline fracture of the pelvic bone. He returned over hurdles the following summer, where he fell in his only start, and hasn't seen the track since.

Anyone who looks at Cyrlight's record, and thinks he was nothing more than a talking horse, is doing him an injustice, and tends towards a lack of respect about the French Jumps scene. Let's not forget that all of The Fellow, First Gold, Kauto Star, Neptune Collonges, Master Minded, as well as a host of other top-class performers, all started their careers over there.

That said, Mulryan & Charlie-Charlie should have run Cyrlight as a 5yo in the King George when they had the chance. Dipsticks.
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I think Cyrilight's reputation was built on his 10 straight Chasing wins from debut at 3, but all of those were against his own age group. He was sent hurdling for 4 of his next 6 races, but in his only race in open company over fences prior to a tilt at the Grande Steeple-Chase de Paris on one older horse contested the event.

His real "acid test" came in the 2006 Grande Steeple-Chase de Paris (their Gold Cup) and he could only finish 4th at 1/2. So whilst he accumlated an impressive number of wins prior to the Grande Steeple-Chase, 10 in graded company, it could be argued his reputation was found wanting when he was pitched against the best all age French chasers (including the ageing Kotkijet who still managed to finish in front of his younger stablemate).

I think the problem with French v UK/Ire jump racing is that we rarely send our best horses to race in their top events, and vice versa, so it is hard to compare form. Since Nupsala's victory in the 87 King George, as you say only really The Fellow and First Gold have managed to consistently hit the heights over on this side of the channel in steeplechases. Sadly we lost Jair Du Cochet before he could truly prove himself at the top table, but in general I think it is fair to say that the French do not send all of their top chases this way. As for the ones who have been bought to race here, it goes without saying that the mastery of Paul Nicholls must be factored into the success of the horses you mention.
 
Princesse DÁnjou out until next year too now :(

Master Minded wasn´t even the best 5yo over in France last year. No idea why we claim to have the best jumps horses when there´s repeatedly stuff ours out of sight ;)
 
It´s true the French seldom send their top horses over yet manage to take home a variety of King George´s, 3 World Hurdles (possibly 4 this time next year) as well as a Triumph Hurdle (twice), and multiple placings in our top races.

We send horses over there - including the top class Glencove Marina (mainly Willie Mullins horses i must add) and they are well beaten. I know the ground is so much softer at Auteuil, Enghien etc. but given we claim to be that much better and Findlay´s bleating about being the best in the world with Denman surely there´s no excuse at all not to send him over?
 
I would love to see Denman run in France.

French horses are precocious which is possibly why they are so popular with trainers who serve the rich, and can afford to buy early success. It does surprise me sometimes that the french are willing to sell their good horses when prize money is comparatively very good over there.

The point about training is a good one - some of these horses do improve markedly over here, and it's possible the French still do keep the best for themselves.

But don't forget a horse like Tidal Fury has been able regularly to go over and thrash the local opposition in decent races; the Brits are not willing enough to take horses over there and compete and until they do it will always be hard to judge the relative strengths of the jumpers

The loss of Jair Du Cochet was terrible - I'm pretty sure he would have won the Gold Cup had been able to contest it the month after his fatal fall
 
Irish Stamp said:
It´s true the French seldom send their top horses over yet manage to take home a variety of King George´s, 3 World Hurdles (possibly 4 this time next year) as well as a Triumph Hurdle (twice), and multiple placings in our top races.

We send horses over there - including the top class Glencove Marina (mainly Willie Mullins horses i must add) and they are well beaten. I know the ground is so much softer at Auteuil, Enghien etc. but given we claim to be that much better and Findlay´s bleating about being the best in the world with Denman surely there´s no excuse at all not to send him over?
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I kind of deliberately avoided mentioning Baracouda as he mainly raced over here. Don't get me wrong, I don't claim that "we" are better than the French. However it is clear that down the years their top horses do not in the main venture across the channel, and equally neither do ours. As good as Glencove Marina and the rest of the Mullins raiding party has been, they are in the top tier in terms of Champion Chasers/Hurdlers. I think that until there is more competition at a higher level between the French/UK.Ire it will always be difficult to gauge how could their "talking horses" are, as we only have their domestic form to go on. Horses like Alcapone (beat the Fellow) and Kotkijet (defeated the likes of First Gold and Djeddah) set the world alight at home, and gave us a reasonable handle to British form via their cross channel raiding compatriots. However as they never themselves ventured this side of the channel to put their credentials to the test the British/Irish viewer doubted true value of the form.

Maybe the French/UK racing authorities could think about putting on a new meeting which rotates year to year between UK/Ire/Fra where the champions from all 3 nations compete.
 
i saw l'ami down in the yard last week. jp has also decided to send drombeag back to enda to go down the cross country route as well. the lads in the yard think he could be rejuvenated, they are not too confident about l'ami.
 
happyaslarry said:
i saw l'ami down in the yard last week. jp has also decided to send drombeag back to enda to go down the cross country route as well. the lads in the yard think he could be rejuvenated, they are not too confident about l'ami.
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Perhaps that has something to do with which yard they have come from. Doumen is obviously one of the finest trainers of his era. Jonjo, I wouldn't trust to teach pigs how to roll in shit.
 
davidjohnson said:
Perhaps that has something to do with which yard they have come from. Doumen is obviously one of the finest trainers of his era. Jonjo, I wouldn't trust to teach pigs how to roll in shit.
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Is Jonjo the problem or is it the people who buy horses for his chief patron? Jonjo has proven he can get winners at the "top table" and was pretty decent with a smallish operation up north prior to moving into Jackdaws. Equally he has shown he is adept at preparing a horse for a big race - Clan Royal in the National a fairly good example of this, and he would have won had the jockey not thought he needed to go out on a 3rd circuit!
 
Jonjo, I wouldn't trust to teach pigs how to roll in shit.
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Burst out laughing at that one...

I wonder how his fortunes will develop over next year or so? Will Jp put more with henderson and Hobbs and whoever? Also, with D Pipe and King having superb seasons last year, the contrast simply grows apace.
 
clivex said:
Burst out laughing at that one...

I wonder how his fortunes will develop over next year or so? Will Jp put more with henderson and Hobbs and whoever? Also, with D Pipe and King having superb seasons last year, the contrast simply grows apace.
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Why do you think JP would put more horses with other trainers?

From 05 to 07 he progressively climbed up the trainers table finishing 2nd in 07 almost doubling the prize money total of 05. He had a bad season last year - that hardly suggests the contrast with others "grows apace".
 
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I didnt say i thought he would...i asked if he would...

Big difference

One season can be enough. King and Pipe were way ahead and no one could doubt that they are on an upward curve.

jonjo's ammunition looks a bit thin this year.
 
clivex said:
I didnt say i thought he would...i asked if he would...

Big difference

One season can be enough. King and Pipe were way ahead and no one could doubt that they are on an upward curve.

jonjo's ammunition looks a bit thin this year.
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The structure of your paragraph distinctly implied JP would put more horses with other trainers when you linked the question "Will Jp put more with henderson and Hobbs and whoever?" with the conclusion "the contrast simply grows apace."

How do you determine that the contrast grows apace, based on just one season?

jonjo's ammunition looks a bit thin this year [quote/]

Please explain.
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numbersix said:
I think Cyrilight's reputation was built on his 10 straight Chasing wins from debut at 3, but all of those were against his own age group. He was sent hurdling for 4 of his next 6 races, but in his only race in open company over fences prior to a tilt at the Grande Steeple-Chase de Paris on one older horse contested the event.
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The age of the opposition beyond 5yo is immaterial, as all are expected to be mature at such an age - hence the lack of concessions.

Cyrlight won three of five all-aged chases after his 5yo season - two of them at G3 level. He patently failed to stay the trip in the Grande Steeplechase, and broke down in the 2006 Jousselin. These remain his only two defeats over fences from 15 starts.

If such a record is considered one of a "talking horse", then I wouldn't mind having one that is fluent in French. :)
 
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I think the point being made GH is that when he contested that "open" Graded race, he was coming up against the likes of Mysoko, Sybellius D'Artaix, and Rigoreux for the umpteenth time, so it did not tell us anything new as they were his contemporaries.

It is a little harsh probably to judge him on only one race, however it is a matter of opinion that he failed to stay, as opposed to being beaten by better horses. Rigoreux did not have a lot to find with him on their previous two meetings and may have just improved past him. Kotkijet had already proven himself top class and even at 11 was able to put his younger stablemate to the sword.

Even if you accept he was a non-stayer, this still leaves the question of was he a "talking" horse. I can sympathise with the poster who called him such, in that although he completely dominated his own domestic age group, he was not pushed into Open company over fences for most of his second season, and the hurdle races he won were not of a great standard - indeed he was beaten 20 lengths in the only Grade 1 hurdle he contested.

I presume you would forward the non-stayer argument for his even more convincing defeat at the hands of Princess D'Anjou in the Jousselin? However would connections have sent him for that race following his eclipse in the Grande Steeple-Chase if they honestly felt he was a non-stayer - especially given the former race is a furlong and a half shorter. Indeed, given the owner, if they had concluded he was a non-stayer surely they would have brought him back in distance and target some of the 2m 5f races over here?
 
numbersix said:
I presume you would forward the non-stayer argument for his even more convincing defeat at the hands of Princess D'Anjou in the Jousselin?
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No.

I would forward the "horse broke down in race and was later found to have fractured his pelvis" argument.

The Grande Steeple-chase de Paris is over 3m5f - the Jousellin is over an extended 3m3f. If you have a top-class French chaser on your hands that stays further than 2m5f, they are the only two logical targets in the calendar, as they are the biggest races in the calendar.

If you want to discuss French talking horses, you have the wrong animal in Cyrlight - you should be discussing Japhet instead.
 
At the last Cheltenham Festival meeting, the barometer for who has the upper hand in the NH breeding World (whether we like it or not), Irish bred horses where well clear of the rest. I can't remember the exact figures but I counted them myself as an agent friend kept raving about French breds and I was sceptical.

While the argument that the French don't send their best over has some merit , plenty of French bred horses are imported to Ireland and the UK before they race so we can't just say 'they don't send their best ones over but actually they breed better horses and keep them at home'.
 
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