List of ungenuine horses

Aragorn said:
Moskova? 5 from 9 over fences suggests not.
Click to expand...

Possibly a shade harsh given her record but she is certainly a tricky ride, having to be delivered at the last minute. She's travelled poorly through her last couple of races as well. Not one I would want to be backing at a short price.

Frascati Park?
 
Difficult to call with Frascati Park as the stable was out of form for such a long time last season. Don't think it's back firing as yet. Frascati Park has two entries on Friday. I would risk a small punt as I quite like the horse.

I am beginning to think that Aran Concerto is falling into the ungenuine category.
 
Looked to be a difficult ride today at Punchestown. Possibly wants further I suppose, but I have a feeling that's being a bit generous tbh.
 
redhead said:
I'll beg to differ with you there Ardross, if you are referring to his run last week. If you watch the replay you can clearly see him shying away from the people cheering on the rails at the second-last and last flights.

His trainer said the other day that while he is a bit temperamental, he is best suited by a late run off a strong pace, when he doesn't have time to take fright at bystanders.
Click to expand...

Sorry Redhead, but I can't be having that!! Firstly there was no 'crowd' at the flights he was trying to run away from, nor was there a crowd cheering as the trainer claimed. The horse tried blatantly ducking the issue well before he saw or heard any punters - for starters the 'crowd' there was exceptionally small for a NH meeting. Horse is an utter dodgepot.

As for Diamond Harry, how on earth is he ungenuine???? I wouldn't mind an ungenuine one with his record - 7 wins and two 3rd places from 9 runs, earning £200k in prize money!
 
Last edited:
The vast majority of horses dubbed ungenuine have become so as a direct result of pain. Years ago Nick Gaselee trained a really nice novice chaser (can't remember its name - very dark brown in colour) who won several on the bounce - then it started to refuse to jump off. He was labelled ungenuine only to drop dead from a heart attack fairly soon afterwards. Horses will invariably start hanging or not go through with their effort only for the trainer to report a problem has surfaced - like Master Minded and his rib. Had Paul Nicholls not had it diagnosed I am sure there would have been plenty of people saying he had "gone at the game"
 
Indeed and alot of the "bridle horses" are giving everything they have on the bridle and have nothing to give off it. Funny that a horse like Brave Inca or Giant's Causeway (both of whom I loved as racehorses) are considered genuine and tough when in truth they are constantly holding something back for themselves and need lots of force to tease it out of them.


jinnyj said:
The vast majority of horses dubbed ungenuine have become so as a direct result of pain. Years ago Nick Gaselee trained a really nice novice chaser (can't remember its name - very dark brown in colour) who won several on the bounce - then it started to refuse to jump off. He was labelled ungenuine only to drop dead from a heart attack fairly soon afterwards. Horses will invariably start hanging or not go through with their effort only for the trainer to report a problem has surfaced - like Master Minded and his rib. Had Paul Nicholls not had it diagnosed I am sure there would have been plenty of people saying he had "gone at the game"
Click to expand...
 
From a betting perspective it doesn't make much difference, it's just a label. One type wont find anything off the bridle, whether it's "not able" or "cant be bothered" makes no odds. Same with a horse who keeps pulling out a bit, whether he's being brave or whether he's lazy responding to bullying is the just the same. You back him in the knowledge he'll find something when he looks beaten..
 
Melendez said:
From a betting perspective it doesn't make much difference, it's just a label. One type wont find anything off the bridle, whether it's "not able" or "cant be bothered" makes no odds. Same with a horse who keeps pulling out a bit, whether he's being brave or whether he's lazy responding to bullying is the just the same. You back him in the knowledge he'll find something when he looks beaten..
Click to expand...

Spot on. The cause is of far less significance or interest from my perspective than the effect.

Though the notion that bridle horses that find little are more genuine than those that respond to pressure is laughable.
 
davidjohnson said:
Though the notion that bridle horses that find little are more genuine than those that respond to pressure is laughable.
Click to expand...

In what sense? If whips were removed tomorrow who's chance would be improved in a match up between Harchibald and Brave Inca? Who would then be considered the dodgy horse for not going past?

Brave Inca (just as an example Cantoris!!) clearly had buckets in the tank but refused to use it unless the maximum pressure was applied. How does that make him more genuine than a horse that would be giving his all being squeezed up rather than one that is giving the bare minimum. Giant's Causeway arguably lost his Irish Guineas and QEII race because he would not just go on and show what he had in the tank rather than waiting for other horses to challenge him and the pressure applied.


Obviously there are plenty of horses that regress, stop, hang, flash their tail etc when pressure is applied and they are a different type.
 
Sorry Gal, but while the argument that some horses give 100% on the bridle is an interesting supposition (and true of a very small minority), the idea you're putting forward is decidedly half baked. Competition horses of all types are trained to respond to pressure, not to go out and do it all for themselves.
 
Galileo said:
Brave Inca (just as an example Cantoris!!) clearly had buckets in the tank but refused to use it unless the maximum pressure was applied. How does that make him more genuine than a horse that would be giving his all being squeezed up rather than one that is giving the bare minimum.
Click to expand...

Gal, I agree with you here. I think the problem here is that there are a bunch of buckets a horse can fall into like bored (Brave Inca), very high cruising speed (Harchibald), idles in front (something that has to be brought late), psychological problem etc etc. In trying to make it easy, we either say they are genuine or not without actually thinking about what that means. To me, a genuine horse is one that gives his all and tries hard. I believe Harchibald gave his all.....on the bridle.....that's as fast as he could go. I believe Brave Inca gave his all, with a little help from the saddle as he had to be ridden a certain way (hated being in behind horses.....psychological).

I noted Ted Walsh's winner at Punchestown the other day. Think it was called Battlefront. Afterwards Ted commented that he told Katie not to hold onto him and disappoint him. So if she had held onto him and disappointed him, would he be considered ungenuine for not going by?? Or is it all mind games??
 
davidjohnson said:
Spot on. The cause is of far less significance or interest from my perspective than the effect.
Click to expand...

I think that's the angle we need to come at it from in this thread.

We could, and I have, spent days and nights arguing over Harchibald, but I have no doubt he merits inclusion in this thread.
 
Exactly Trackside. Tidal Bay is another that is a sure fire inclusion on this thread. But I'd be amazed if he's not in pain every time he takes off at a fence given how he seems reluctant to ever stand off one these days and always wants to fiddle them.
 
jinnyj said:
The vast majority of horses dubbed ungenuine have become so as a direct result of pain. Years ago Nick Gaselee trained a really nice novice chaser (can't remember its name - very dark brown in colour) who won several on the bounce - then it started to refuse to jump off. He was labelled ungenuine only to drop dead from a heart attack fairly soon afterwards.
Click to expand...
Private Views, I believe.
 
davidjohnson said:
Exactly Trackside. Tidal Bay is another that is a sure fire inclusion on this thread. But I'd be amazed if he's not in pain every time he takes off at a fence given how he seems reluctant to ever stand off one these days and always wants to fiddle them.
Click to expand...
It should be noted that Timeform give horses a squiggle to denote that they are unreliable rather than solely ungenuine, and that the two are virtually synonymous from a betting point of view.
 
Don't know about Timeform but the pointer(Fully Loaded) I am riding out at the moment has one in the point-to-point annual and yet he has won 3 from 3 this year creating a new record for the first horse to win 3 points before Jan 1st. Its not a case of him being ungenuine just a different way of riding him both on course and at home. This horse's confidence has soared by being time to get into his races and a softly softly approach being given. Thats not in any way knocking the last connections as they won 4 races with him anyway but he just loves the extra attention he gets.
 
Back
Top