Lydia On The Derby

It was quite good but the Great Leighs slagging was disappointing, didn't think she'd follow the rest of the sheep with that one.
 
If she found the Great Leighs experience a depressing one she's surely entitled to say so without being labelled a "sheep".
 
It's all so easy to follow the rest of the hacks when they pan somewhere - seems strange to me how after the inaugural fixture the press were falling over themselves to praise the place yet a few fixtures later they've all decided to rip it apart! Everyone knows Great Leighs is still a work in progress and I'm reliably informed it has improved enormously since that first meeting yet they feel the need to bang on incessantly about a bit of mud!
 
Whatever about Bolger, her criticism of Weld is out of order. Having doubts about running a twice-raced, un-entered trial winner is an order of magnitude different to what Bolger has done, regardless if any sober reflection on the horse's trial made it an obvious no-brainer. Her snide dig at him for not recognising the horse's potential before is out of order, especially in a world where greats like Stoute (Kris Kin) and O'Brien (Dylan Thomas) have blatantly been unaware of just what they had sleeping in their stables during the Spring.

Also, this is bullshit:

His compatriots may consider that the lateness of his decision does not reflect well on Irish racing.
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The lateness of his decision reflects badly on Jim Bolger, full stop.
 
Bit of a rant, short on substance, hopefully the Derby won't be career defining for Casual conquest, a big scopey inexperienced horse like him needs and deserves time. She seems to be trying to turn it into some kind of Irish/English thing.
In short, trashy stuff.
 
I thought Weld had been reasonably ok to be honest, he at least put the evolution of his thoughts into the public domain as they developed and punters were able to form an opinion regarding participation. Now you might say Bolger wasn't obliged to say anything (bad PR in itself) but instead he chose to wantonly mislead. In that respect, there's a world of difference regarding how the two have conduced themselves. And for that matter you can throw messers O'Brien and Magnier into the mix too, as neither suggested that Henry was ever going to run, only that it was being assessed as a possibel option.

I note with a wry smile the RP's tag line "Tony OHehir talks to media friendly Dermot Weld about his charges chances" :P Journo's always take this kind of thing badly. I can't help feeling there's a little bit of a Teofilo hangover here, and Bolger's playing petty feuds, with punters pickign up the tab.

My understanding is that a few Irish trainers are privately annoyed with some of the antics of the more notorious breathren, but this is largely due to plot jobs and the view that the English handicappers are increasingly taking on their horses. I'd be inclined to interpret Lydia's comment as a veiled appeal for a bit of peer pressure to be applied from within the training ranks, as I'm sure she's right that episodes such as this can't be in the wider interest of the sport
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Jun 3 2008, 10:01 PM
Also, this is bullshit:

His compatriots may consider that the lateness of his decision does not reflect well on Irish racing.
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The lateness of his decision reflects badly on Jim Bolger, full stop.
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Here here. I found that a bit xenophobic as well
 
I'd be inclined to interpret Lydia's comment as a veiled appeal for a bit of peer pressure to be applied from within the training ranks
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She's not that stunningly naive. The whole point is that Bolger is a contrarian; it's seems to be his default mode of thought. He's about as likely to be influenced by "peer pressure" as he is to, well, give ante-post markets a second thought.
 
Those who placed bets on the basis that New Approach would not run will be savagely reproachful
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That`s a bit strong. I had £40 on Tajaaweed the weekend after Chester and i`ve just laid half of it back at 12 on Betfair. It`s not hard to balance a book.
 
Of course there's a Teofilo hangover there too - but more to do with the small issue that the press are hacked off that when they went to Bolger's open day the horse only walked out for them (rather than cantered), was obviously fresh as paint (as in not in full cantering work) yet they still didn't twig it might be on the easy list!!! :laughing:
 
Originally posted by Sheikh@Jun 3 2008, 10:25 PM
Bit of a rant, short on substance, hopefully the Derby won't be career defining for Casual conquest, a big scopey inexperienced horse like him needs and deserves time. She seems to be trying to turn it into some kind of Irish/English thing.
In short, trashy stuff.
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She'd probably argue that Bolger started this with his "I don't interfere in foreign countries" thing, not that there is any reasons for her to have risen to the comment though
 
Lydia is Lydia, unfortunately she writes for the Times and we don't. She writes for a national newspaper, not a internet forum where people can rate and tear apart the posts. Ultimately it will be Mr Murdoch and the editorial staff at The Times who will have any meaningful judgement to pass.

Yes she is fit, but shes way out of my league. :P
 
Can I refer to Gareths comment that Bolger is a "contrarian" and add the word 'bollocks' to that description.
 
Originally posted by martin@Jun 3 2008, 11:49 PM


Yes she is fit, but shes way out of my league. :P
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Sorry, that`s just wrong. You wouldn`t look twice if you saw her on the street. She`s a 6 at best.
 
"The credibility of the sport is damaged, for some perhaps irreparably."

Have a lot of time for Lydia Hislop, but does anyone believe this is actually true? While Bolger's escapade has undoubtedly left a bitter taste for many, I find it hard to believe the incident has damaged the credibility of racing to an "irreparable" level for many (if any). Over the top.

Euro, you're comments are bang out of order. This is not the Betfair forum.

FWIW, I would agree with your assessment of said filly. :P
 
I would be interested to read her responses to some of the points mentioned on here (particularly Gareths).
 
Originally posted by Euronymous+Jun 3 2008, 11:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Euronymous @ Jun 3 2008, 11:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-martin@Jun 3 2008, 11:49 PM


Yes she is fit, but shes way out of my league. :P
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Sorry, that`s just wrong. You wouldn`t look twice if you saw her on the street. She`s a 6 at best. [/b][/quote]
You may be right as I haven't actually seen her since her days on the beeb! Can't afford RUK!
 
Cant agree with euro at all there. :suspect:


It may be true that this just reflects "badly on Bolger not Irish racing"...in just the same way that ballydoyle or weld group one victories say, can be intrepreted as just that

I would agree that she should maybe have left weld out of this although whining about the fee after what is effectively a mistake (regardless of who you are) doesnt help.

Shadow ...the Great leighs crticisms are spot on. I wish the course well but if you dont hit the ground running then any business will soon struggle. Friends of mine who opened a club found this and it takes a lot to turn round bad initial impressions. The devil is in the detail and word of mouth is damaging. Its not any jounalists job to be a PR for any course
 
Big debate: Has the Derby lost its No1 status on the calendar?

Bill Oppenheim says the Derby is less relevant now for breeders while Marcus Tregoning insists there is nowhere like Epsom

The Guardian

Yes
Bill Oppenheim
Bloodstock consultant and co-owner of Derby chance Curtain Call

This remains a relevant question no matter who runs in the race. The Derby, at a mile and a half, is no longer the be-all and end-all of European racing. That is partly due to greater opportunities on the circuit and a lot of the reason for that is the way the bloodstock industry is structured.

Racing is a losing proposition -- it is very difficult to win with one roll of the dice -- and so the breeding industry is more profitable than the racing side. The sport, as in society in general, is also more financially driven than it used to be. Money is no longer controlled by aristocrats but by entrepreneurs who want a chance to recover their investments at the earliest opportunity. Concurrently, there has been a move towards mile races in Europe as being the ones that produce the most valuable stud prospects.

Take the two Coolmore horses, Giants Causeway and Rock of Gibraltar, both of whom were top-class milers who won races over a mile and a quarter. They would have been valued at €50m and €30m respectively when they went to stud. Galileo, who won the Derby, would have been valued at around €20m, which illustrates that even for the best potential staying sire there is a top limit. And Galileo is the ultimate success story -- most Derby winners do not make overwhelmingly successful sires. There is no doubt that the miling division is more valuable as breeding stock than the mile-and-a-half division.

For me, what is needed to restore the Derby is its inclusion in more of an integrated European racing programme to reflect that racing has become more international in the past 30 years. If you took a logical progression, you could create a Triple Crown of the French Derby, the Epsom Derby and the Irish Derby that the fans and gamblers would care about as much as the breeders.

The difficulty in attracting sponsorship suggests that the whole of horse racing does not have the cachet socially that it once did. And yet, racing demographics should be very good; certainly to owners in America, you would be advertising Cadillacs. Part of the answer has to be that the industry must present a far better product for everybody, through a radical restructuring of prize money and a more international view to the calendar.

For the owners of Curtain Call, though, the Derby is still the biggest race in the world. We're all professionals in the industry, and people like us aren't supposed to have the second favourite for the Derby. But there's no reason why we shouldn't win it, the horse has the pedigree and we would be kidding to say it is not a huge race to win.

No
Marcus Tregoning
Trainer of 2006 Derby winner Sir Percy

What is so special about Epsom is that it is a unique racecourse -- there is no other, you would have to say, that quite comes close to it. That is why we are so lucky in this country: none of our racecourses are the same, they all have their quirks and their challenges and that is what gives the big races their character. You would certainly say that is true of Epsom. It is the most testing track for any horse in the world and you will find that generally the best horse of its generation wins the Derby.

I cannot imagine that any trainer or owner would not like to win the Derby or, indeed, has not dreamt of doing so at some point. You cannot underestimate what it means to win such a prize and that has not dimmed over time. Huge prestige accompanies victory -- more so than any other race. Having won it with Sir Percy, I certainly want to do so again.

I do not know what the circumstances were in which some trainers initially said that they were not looking to run their horse in this year's race. What I do know is that there are many considerations to be taken into account and that everyone has their own ideas. For example, there has been a lot of rain and the going for Saturday's race may well be on the soft side if it doesn't dry out over the next few days. That will inevitably have an eff ect -- certain horses suit certain ground more than others. You can be sure, however, that a really good horse will come out on top, especially now that New Approach has entered and is in the frame, and it will be a proper championship race.

When considering whether winning the Derby influences future stallion valuations, admittedly you cannot ignore that the emphasis is now on
breeding horses for speed rather than stamina. But there are still studs, including the famous Ballymacoll Stud, who breed for stamina and a horse that can go on to win the Derby.

And winning the race does prove the horse's quality. Sir Percy won races over a mile and a mile and a half but he proved himself a champion when he won the Derby and that is why he had a block of mares queuing up for him.
And you have to look at Galileo too, the 2001 champion, who has been doing extremely well at stud. For most owners and trainers in this country, the Derby is the race to win.

The race is far from dwindling in popularity and has actually increased its relevance to the public in recent years. There are far more people who go to the Derby now than there were 10 years ago. It should attract a top-class permanent sponsor, they just haven't quite found the right one yet. It is an important choice because there is a lot of money involved; it is a massive prize and so it should be for a race of such significance.
 
Take the two Coolmore horses, Giants Causeway and Rock of Gibraltar, both of whom were top-class milers who won races over a mile and a quarter.
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Surprising error.

His triple crown of European Derbys is a nice idea; although I reckon the Derby / Irish Derby / Grand Prix de Paris is a better fit within the current program. This year, for example, would mean:

Epsom -> break of 3 weeks -> Irish Derby -> Break of 2 weeks -> GP de Paris

Finishing it in France makes sense as they're the ones most likely to be able to throw in serious prize money.
 
"More directly, Bolger's attitude fails to recognise the joined-up real world. His horses run for prize-money largely provided by the betting of punters. They help keep him in work. Along with racegoers, these people keep racecourses in business and attract advertisers to the sport. This provides him with venues to run his horses and achieve stallion value.

If punters are disaffected, the whole house of cards falls down. Like it or not, deride it or not, it is a fact. How do you drive home the virtue of this circle? Should the British Horseracing Authority introduce an onus to participate, if required, in the promotion of all group one races for as long as your horse holds an entry?

It is a sorry state of affairs when we must legislate for the lowest common denominator when the benefit of timely decision making should be self-evident. "
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Absolutely spot on.
 
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