Mc coy rides denman

M

Mr.Jake

At the Start
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
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Tony Mc Coy will ride Denman in AON and GC.

Thought Ruby would wait and make a decision after Aon, who knows what's goin on in background.
 
I think it was clear which horse Ruby would choose. Connections of Denman have given themselves the best possible chance of the best possible chance of an upset.
 
Ruby was always going to pick Kauto Star for the Gold Cup. It is understandable that once Tony McCoy was going to ride Denman at Cheltenham that he would ride him in his prep run at Newbury.
 
Best choice for DENMAN. If the horse is becoming increasingly assertive, he will be handled by a jockey renowned for asserting his will - which is exactly what you want from a pilot, at any time, let alone this level.
 
He wouldn't be my idea of the best pilot for Denman, I would have gone for a sober Carberry...........Nina perhaps :)
 
Pricewise's dig at McCoy in the RP was a bit harsh. He said, McCoy would not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th choice for him if he owned Denman.
 
Nina's a very good Bumper rider, but I think DENMAN would test her mettle much too far, given he's a very strong beast and becoming wilful, too, and she has yet to be tested seriously over jumps. Now would not be the time to experiment! I thought the remark about McCoy was intended to promote giggles - it did with the studio and I took it that way, too. He might say what he thinks, but he didn't say who those four better choices would be, which might've been almost interesting. He sounds as if he was either being humorous or contrarian for the sake of it. If it's true that DENMAN's beginning to think he's the pilot and not the rider, McCoy will soon disabuse him of that notion. He's the best I can think of for correcting a horse who's becoming over-assertive about what he'll do, or even if he'll deign to do it. KAUTO seems a different proposition - hence his sprawl when Thomas lost his nerve and let the horse become confused about what to do. That one seems to also need a strong rider (which he didn't have with Thomas, but will with Walsh), but for different reasons.
 
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McCoy is probably a far better pilot than Walsh but the type of horse they ride on a daily basis is far apart. McCoy showed on Exotic Dancer numerous times that he can sit and wait and being on Denman is a massive positive for me. (rgynq--, . p 1111)
 
Sheikh said:
He wouldn't be my idea of the best pilot for Denman, I would have gone for a sober Carberry...........Nina perhaps :)
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Totally agree.... what Sam Thomas did wrong I don't know, gave him a brilliant ride when he won the thing....... Think its ridiculous decision.

Hope tricky trickster beats the two of them.
 
krizon said:
Best choice for DENMAN. If the horse is becoming increasingly assertive, he will be handled by a jockey renowned for asserting his will - which is exactly what you want from a pilot, at any time, let alone this level.
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I am not sure that is necessarily true. I would prefer a jockey to try and "cod" Denman rather than try to assert his authority on him. Denman is such a brute that if that became an issue then bullying him into doing something is not going to help matters.
 
But, Mr Jake, the ride by McCoy is nothing to do with Sam Thomas! Thomas has been ensconced as the first pilot to Tom George for some time, but what he did wrong was to try to let KAUTO STAR make up his own mind (wrong decision - the horse needs the jockey to indicate 'hup!' or the least he'll do is bulldoze his fence), with the result they both hit the deck - actually, he hit the deck in the Betfair Chase and the Hennessy Gold Cup in 2008. He got jocked off MASTER MINDED in the Tingle Creek. He then fell off DENMAN in the Totesport Bowl at Aintree in 2009. He'd been hot-housed by Nicholls in a way that few second jockeys have ever been. But in the process, he demonstrated that bringing on talent, precocious as his was, is better done over time, learning any number of skills on the way (as Walsh and McCoy have done, and countless others). He was let down by his inexperience and what, in the end, looked like a distinct lack of riding intelligence, if not bottle.

Gal - I don't see my use of the word 'bullying' anywhere, do you? Being assertive is - as any 'human resources' course will tell you - not about bullying, but about indicating who is taking responsibility. In this case, as in all racing, it's the jockey, not the horse. You don't need to knock seven bells out of a horse to give it an assertive (and no, I haven't said 'aggressive', either) ride. If DENMAN's getting squirly as he ages, McCoy is not going to have any of it. There might be other jockeys who could manage, but why not go for someone who's proven at convincing horses to do their job? It's just good hiring practice, isn't it?
 
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Where are you getting that notion from, Krizon? I may have missed the quote from Nicholls, but I certainly haven't heard it, nor have I seen it in any of his races.
 
Which notion, tracks? Sorry, off to Lingfield now and back later. (If you mean DENMAN getting a bit 'wise', it was discussed on ATR on Saturday morning, but I have used the disclaimer 'if', as you'll see in my second last sentence. I haven't got that notion, it's a notion which appears to be considered by some racing hacks.)
 
krizon said:
But, Mr Jake, the ride by McCoy is nothing to do with Sam Thomas! Thomas has been ensconced as the first pilot to Tom George for some time, but what he did wrong was to try to let KAUTO STAR make up his own mind (wrong decision - the horse needs the jockey to indicate 'hup!' or the least he'll do is bulldoze his fence), with the result they both hit the deck - actually, he hit the deck in the Betfair Chase and the Hennessy Gold Cup in 2008. He got jocked off MASTER MINDED in the Tingle Creek. He then fell off DENMAN in the Totesport Bowl at Aintree in 2009. He'd been hot-housed by Nicholls in a way that few second jockeys have ever been. But in the process, he demonstrated that bringing on talent, precocious as his was, is better done over time, learning any number of skills on the way (as Walsh and McCoy have done, and countless others). He was let down by his inexperience and what, in the end, looked like a distinct lack of riding intelligence, if not bottle.

Gal - I don't see my use of the word 'bullying' anywhere, do you? Being assertive is - as any 'human resources' course will tell you - not about bullying, but about indicating who is taking responsibility. In this case, as in all racing, it's the jockey, not the horse. You don't need to knock seven bells out of a horse to give it an assertive (and no, I haven't said 'aggressive', either) ride. If DENMAN's getting squirly as he ages, McCoy is not going to have any of it. There might be other jockeys who could manage, but why not go for someone who's proven at convincing horses to do their job? It's just good hiring practice, isn't it?
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Your havin a laugh, are you saying denman wouldn't have fallen had ruby been on him at aintree, thomas did nothing wrong and people who actually know the game like John Francome have said as much. The same applies to Haydock, horses make mistakes and trainers find excuses why. He wasn't complaining about his ride on What a Friend at Christmas.

As for bottle, I think he showed plenty on the second circuit of the GC in 2008, takes a lot of bottle to try an run the rest of the field into the ground, and risk not getting home, and all the criticism that would have come with that. He could have settled for an honourable second to KAUTO by setting a steadier pace, but he didn't, he took risk and executed it perfectly, on the BIG day. I couldn't imagine AP or Ruby doing any better.
 
krizon said:
But, Mr Jake, the ride by McCoy is nothing to do with Sam Thomas! Thomas has been ensconced as the first pilot to Tom George for some time, but what he did wrong was to try to let KAUTO STAR make up his own mind (wrong decision - the horse needs the jockey to indicate 'hup!' or the least he'll do is bulldoze his fence), with the result they both hit the deck - actually, he hit the deck in the Betfair Chase and the Hennessy Gold Cup in 2008. He got jocked off MASTER MINDED in the Tingle Creek. He then fell off DENMAN in the Totesport Bowl at Aintree in 2009. He'd been hot-housed by Nicholls in a way that few second jockeys have ever been. But in the process, he demonstrated that bringing on talent, precocious as his was, is better done over time, learning any number of skills on the way (as Walsh and McCoy have done, and countless others). He was let down by his inexperience and what, in the end, looked like a distinct lack of riding intelligence, if not bottle.

Gal - I don't see my use of the word 'bullying' anywhere, do you? Being assertive is - as any 'human resources' course will tell you - not about bullying, but about indicating who is taking responsibility. In this case, as in all racing, it's the jockey, not the horse. You don't need to knock seven bells out of a horse to give it an assertive (and no, I haven't said 'aggressive', either) ride. If DENMAN's getting squirly as he ages, McCoy is not going to have any of it. There might be other jockeys who could manage, but why not go for someone who's proven at convincing horses to do their job? It's just good hiring practice, isn't it?
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For me it doesnt matter how suitable mccoy is thomas has done everything right on him. Perhaps nichols should jock ruby off if he feels Carbery etc is better suited!!!!!!!!!!!!:p
 
littlelad said:
For me it doesnt matter how suitable mccoy is thomas has done everything right on him. Perhaps nichols should jock ruby off if he feels Carbery etc is better suited!!!!!!!!!!!!:p
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I thought it was pretty obvious from the press reports that the driving force behind the change is Findlay.
 
Ardross said:
I thought it was pretty obvious from the press reports that the driving force behind the change is Findlay.
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Which is all the more peciliar as it was findlay that said"For a normal horse its 90percent horse and 10 per cent jockey, But for Denman its 98 per cent horse 2 per cent jockey"
 
In a nutshell, it's the owner's prerogative to say to the trainer who he wants to ride his horse. I'm sure if Harry Findlay didn't want McCoy but did want Thomas, he'd be instructing Nicholls to put the young 'un back up. It doesn't look like that's what he wants and, as he pays the bills (including the riding fee), he can call whatever shots he likes. (For all we know, Thomas might've been approached and turned the offer down, on the grounds that his loyalty is now with Tom George.)
 
I wonder if Tom Segal watched the ride AP gave Sunnyhillboy at Ludlow yesterday - seemed to have little problem in presenting him at a fence . I thought it was a quite brilliant ride.
 
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