davidjohnson
At the Start
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Messages
- 3,434
His ride on the horse behind Take The Breeze at Newbury was even better.
Mc coy rides denman
- Thread starter Mr.Jake
- Start date
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
One of a number of non-triers in the race Hamm - 7 horses officially contested the race, 2 tried.
rorydelargy
At the Start
One feels sorry for Den Of Iniquity.
Irish Stamp
Forum Moderator
JP had a reverse forecast of sorts in that race - last two in any order 
Glad to see you don't think the Cross Country races in Punchestown or Cheltenham do much to test a jocks ability to ride over jumps
When she's had to step in she is well capable. She wouldn't be your first choice over fences given the talent that's around (Ruby, McCoy,. Townend etc etc) but it's simply because she doesn't ride over fences everday rather than a lack of ability. If she turned professional, I could see her doing very well. But amateur game is very lucrative if you're at the top....just ask Philip Fenton.As for McCoy as choice of jock.....not sure it makes much difference. Bounce him out in front and let him do what he does best.....jump and grind them into submission. I think the Henessey was just him knocking the cobwebs out and he'll be a sharper proposition come March.
Oh, come on, Canto! There's a big difference, as any rider knows, between the leisurely pace of the X-country courses and the intensity of top-class chasing. You've also twisted what I've said into nothing like its intent (you're not a journalist, are you?) - I have nowhere said that she hasn't ability.
I said she has yet to be tested seriously over jumps. As in, be good enough to competitively ride DENMAN? No, of course not. You've then gone on to support my own remark by saying "it's simply because she doesn't ride over fences everyday... " - duh! Yessss, that's what might be implied by yet to be tested seriously, right? Let her get in a helluva lot more rides in regular chases, not what many people still (wrongly, in my book) consider novelty races, before you throw the country's co-best chaser at anyone less than the best riders. And by best, yes, that does actually mean those who don't just ride the most, but who win the most!
I said she has yet to be tested seriously over jumps. As in, be good enough to competitively ride DENMAN? No, of course not. You've then gone on to support my own remark by saying "it's simply because she doesn't ride over fences everyday... " - duh! Yessss, that's what might be implied by yet to be tested seriously, right? Let her get in a helluva lot more rides in regular chases, not what many people still (wrongly, in my book) consider novelty races, before you throw the country's co-best chaser at anyone less than the best riders. And by best, yes, that does actually mean those who don't just ride the most, but who win the most!
In the unlikely event of McCoy getting injured/suspended and Nina being announced as rider, what would the betting market reaction be? My guess is Denman would drift half a point maybe even a full point.
In my opinion it would be a bonus half point or so, as I don't think his chance would be compromised one iota, but undoubtedly I'd be out of kilter with the general consesus.
In my opinion it would be a bonus half point or so, as I don't think his chance would be compromised one iota, but undoubtedly I'd be out of kilter with the general consesus.
Considering how badly Sunnyhillboy ran the next time as well I don't think that is fair . He appears to be a better horse on better ground , the race was over half a mile longer and against significantly inferior opposition .
The Newbury race was run on heavy ground - looked to me like they expected Take the Breeze to come back to them and he didn't .
I did enjoy that Kri and you had nearly won me over until your statement about "novelty races" really irked me. The X-country is not the same as riding your hunter around the fields. God I don't even ride that much but even I can see that. I often think it shows a jocks quality better than a normal race as you have to be at one with the beast, IMO. There's no brushing through the top of a bank!! And what was the name of Gordon elliots hurdler that she rode to a few successes last year or year before. Ran in green colours. Needed the ground like the road. I know after that some people thought Nina would turn pro.
True, but on a top class, straightforward horse like Denman, it is unlikely to make any difference whether you have the best or the 10th best. It's more a case of not doing anything stupid.
Sheikh
At the Start
As I'm sure your all aware the reference to Nina was 'tongue in cheek' but while we're at it there's only about 5 jocks I'd have in front of her, if I was ever mad enough to own a chaser. She's as strong as most of them and is as shrewd as they come. I've never thought that before about any lady jock on the flat or jumps.
Cantorissss... you are really now going to have to stand in the corner, wearing a big cap with a 'D' (for DENMAN) on it!! PLEASE READ what I write - I don't consider the x-countries novelty races at all - did you not note that??? - but a lot of supposedly 'straight' NH types do. All they want from chasing is the uprights followed by an open ditch, period. You must've missed the often dismissive comments by some racing hacks about the value of the x-country races - perhaps you were gazing lovingly into BRAVE INCA'S melting eyes at the time, and were otherwise engaged, but believe me, yes, a fair number of NH types do not consider them to be 'serious'.
Melendez... oh, stop it! This is a wind-up, isn't it? I'd put Noel Fehily, Davy Russell, Tom Scudamore, Andrew McNamara, Richard Johnson, Paddy Brennan, Graham Lee, Denis O'Regan, Choc Thornton or Timmy Murphy on my G1 chaser before Nina! She's a very good rider, of course she is, but she hasn't consistently ridden in premier races, let alone win any, and until she gets anywhere near to these chaps' experience, she wouldn't do so for me. And it's when jockeys become complacent that the horse is 'straightforward' that they doze off and let the horse lose concentration. Of course it makes a difference if you're the best or 10th best! Why do you think most owners are desperate for Walsh or McCoy? It isn't because they're just as happy with the 10th in line.
Melendez... oh, stop it! This is a wind-up, isn't it? I'd put Noel Fehily, Davy Russell, Tom Scudamore, Andrew McNamara, Richard Johnson, Paddy Brennan, Graham Lee, Denis O'Regan, Choc Thornton or Timmy Murphy on my G1 chaser before Nina! She's a very good rider, of course she is, but she hasn't consistently ridden in premier races, let alone win any, and until she gets anywhere near to these chaps' experience, she wouldn't do so for me. And it's when jockeys become complacent that the horse is 'straightforward' that they doze off and let the horse lose concentration. Of course it makes a difference if you're the best or 10th best! Why do you think most owners are desperate for Walsh or McCoy? It isn't because they're just as happy with the 10th in line.
The reality is that there's very little difference in quality between the jockeys at the top level. If you gave me the choice between Choc and Ruby or AP I honestly wouldn't give a toss. They are all top quality at that level and they all know what they're doing.
The media needs its stars like Ruby ect, that doesn't mean they are on a different planet to anyone else. He has the most winners cause he rides for the champion trainer, who has the biggest owners with the most €€€€€€.
I'm not a jockey but that's just my opinion, its a media creation as much as anything else.
Actually, Mr.Jake, Walsh and McCoy are on a different planet to anyone else riding over the sticks! They're champion riders, which is why they're retained by champion trainers for champion horses. Ruby Walsh and Tony McCoy have the most winners because they ride better than, say, Andy Thornton, and cajole wins from even the most doggy animals, where other riders fail. Ruby doesn't have the most winners because he rides for the champion trainer - he rides for the champion trainer because he's become one of the very best NH riders in the world. You or I could ride for the champion trainer and fail to even get a gallant 7th, because we'd be rubbish.
I'm getting worried about you Kri.....you sure you're ok
Sounds very poetic though :lol:
I understand he rides for two trainers, my point was that the reason he is champ jockey (IN IRELAND) is because he rides for the champion trainer (IN IRELAND).
I agree he's up there with the best jockeys, I just don't see what specifically he does that say Choc Thornton or Richard Johnson doesn't.
Again, I'm not an expert, but I'm just not convinced the gulf that's meant to be there really is. At the end of the day the horse have to have the ability, and has to have been trained properly, which I think is the most important thing in riding winners.
rorydelargy
At the Start
Shocking example to use there. :blink:
Muttley
At the Start
Er, no. Ruby has been champion jockey many times more than Willie Mullins has been champion trainer. He has beeh champion jockey in seasons where Willie Mullins has had a diabolical time. Over the last 5 seasons less then half his winners in Ireland have come from Willie Mullins. He is champion jockey in Ireland because a lot of people want him to ride their horses. And that is because a lot of people think he is the best.