Me no understand...

Desert Orchid

Desert Orchid

Senior Jockey
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
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I've just received a letter from betvictor telling me they can no longer offer me credit facilities unless I fill in and sign a 'Statement of High Net Worth' form.

I've read through it am none the wiser why they're asking for this. It also looks like they're saying gambling debts are enforceable by law (I didn't think they were) but that doesn't apply to me as I'm in credit with them.

I don't see that I can consider myself to be a person of High Net Worth as I'm retired and living off my work pension which is a fair bit less than 50% of what I was earning.

I might just phone them and ask for clarification but I was wondering if anyone else has received this letter?

PS - Does this mean I'm likely to get similar letters from all the other bookies with whom I have credit accounts? I they all close me down just for being a pensioner I'll be seriously inconvenienced. In fact, thinking about it, I'll probably pack it all in.
 
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At least you can still get a bet on! A credit account is some badge of honour. £3 emergency phone credit is as much as you'll get on tick these days.
 
I presume most/all bookies [that I have accounts with] have analysed my accounts and have worked out that I'm not privy to private information and that my betting patterns pose no real threat to them even though I'm five figures ahead across all accounts, so they've been quite happy to let me continue. I tend not to withdraw money from the accounts (VC credited my bank account with over a grand recently against my wishes) as I genuinely fear the long losing run. I tend to take out enough to cover my once or twice a year jaunt to Spain but that's not much of a dent.

Just realised the usual snipers will latch on to this as indirect aftertiming...
 
Given that you leave large enough amounts across your accounts it strikes as a bit shady to me. I'm assuming they'll place your cash on deposit at the tidiest rate they can find so they should only reciprocate really.

I suppose they will tell you that they are safeguarding themselves against bad debts from credit account holders who aren't as shrewd and skilled as yourself.

Not the worst position to be in mind. As long as VC and co are paying for twice yearly trips to Spain, that has to be a worthwhile win.
 
I'm not looking for them to pay me interest on what I leave in my accounts. It's just there for convenience and, as I said, to help guard against the inevitable long losing run.

I don't see why I should be penalised for others' bad debts.

I sent them a very polite email today. So far they haven't replied. Reading between the lines of their letter, it looks as though the onus will be on me to make sure the account is zeroed within 30 days rather than them just paying the money into my bank account the way they did not long ago when they effectively zeroed it then leaving me to try and build it back up again.
 
No I know, but I'm assuming they will be earning interest on your money from their bank, so it suits them if you leave a sizable continuous balance that doesn't fluctuate wildly. That's why I think its only fair they keep the credit facility.

I wish you the best of luck getting a resolution that is amicable and worthwhile for you. I imagine the bookies will just point to Terms and Conditions they've inserted giving them the right to do what they are.
 
I would have thought that client money with a bookmaker is similar to that of uninvested cash or income recieived and yet to be paid away in an investment portfolio. In which case the firm is not allowed to receive interest on it without passing it onto the client.

Quite what that means a bookmaker would do with it in the interim I'm completely unsure so maybe the rules are indeed different.
 
wilsonl said:
I would have thought that client money with a bookmaker is similar to that of uninvested cash or income recieived and yet to be paid away in an investment portfolio. In which case the firm is not allowed to receive interest on it without passing it onto the client.
Click to expand...
That's not necessarily true Wilson, as it's all about the Terms & Conditions

I work in Operations for an investment company who pay no interest on uninvested cash held in client accounts. We used to make a healthy turn 5/10 years ago when interest rates were higher, but it's negligible now
 
I should have clarified and maybe that's where the two sectors are different; execution only accounts etc. have no requirement to invest cash whereas managed retail products and discretionary accounts need to invest it according to the mandate (aka T&Cs).

The only reason they should be holding cash is to cover forecast management charges ,although circumstances can offer respite where the portfolio manager may feel it safer to keep the cash even, at zero rate, as opposed to losing it in a bear market.

But back to the original topic and there's no way I'd leave cash in betting accounts, partly to remove credit exposure, partly because I'd prefer it on deposit even if earning only minimal interest and partly because I'd be trollied one night and blow the lot on some rag with the touch of a thumb :)
 
Are they taking precautions in case interest rates become negative and keeping accounts in credit will cost bookmakers money?
 
The fishell reply:

Firstly, I would like to apologises for any offence my letter dated the 12[SUP]th[/SUP] January may have caused you.

The reasoning for my letter being sent to all credit customers is because of the Gambling Act 2014 which required all online bookmakers regardless of where they were located in the world to obtain a licence if they wish to offer online bookmaking and gambling to GB residents.

The GB licence comprises conditions and legal obligations we must adhere to, in order to keep the licence. One of these relates to provision of credit to residents in the UK.
In order to meet these conditions, we have to apply all applicable laws in relation to the provisions of credit. As such, we first looked at obtaining a Consumer Credit Licence so that we could continue to provide credit in GB in our usual way. Unfortunately, as we do not have a business in GB both our GB lawyers and our Gibraltar lawyers were not able to establish a way for us to obtain one as we did not satisfy the requirements in GB and we would not be in a position to passport a Gibraltar Credit Licence into GB. We spent several months trying to resolve this so we would not have to bother customers with this request, however, we were not able to find an outcome that worked.

So the only recourse available to us within GB law is to remove the agreements from the Consumer Credit Act. There was previously an exemption for credit agreements of less than £25,000 which some customers may recall but this was removed in 2008 by the GB Government
(http://www.addleshawgoddard.com/view.asp?content_id=2788&parent_id=2781 ) . This link explains the removal of that limitation.

In 2008, a new exemption was brought in called the High Net Worth Exemption which means we can still provide Credit outside the Consumer Credit Act to individuals who:
“High Net Worth Exemption

Where the creditor/hirer is a natural person of "high net worth" the regulations under the Act will not apply. "High net worth" Individuals are defined as persons whose income after tax and national insurance is not less than £150,000 per year or as persons who have net assets of no less than £500,000 excluding their primary residence, any redundancy payments or any pension or other retirement benefit payments.”

I know that the forms we have to ask people to sign are really turgid but they are set out in the Exemption Order – we have not drafted them, they are Governmental forms we are required to fill out exactly as they are drafted.

I attach a copy of this Exemption Order so anyone who is concerned can satisfy themselves that the wording is required by law and not something we have just come up with to be difficult.

(http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20080814090403/opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20071168_en_1)

If individuals, are not able to or do not wish to avail of the exemption we can no longer provide them with credit as it could cause us to be in breach of our licence which is something we cannot do.

Any balance outstanding including Ante-Post bets will need to be paid in full by the 11[SUP]th[/SUP] February and should you wish to keep your account open we can convert this into a debit account, the only major change would be that you would now have to pay for the wagers when they are placed.

If you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact me.
 
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Can I ask what is probably a really dumb question (genuinely not sure if I've followed this thread correctly).

Bookmakers offer credit facilities to certain customers??

What does this mean in practice? Do they give you an overdraft on your betting account or something? I've always always used my Debit Card for online betting, and have never had credit offered to me, so this is all very new to me.
 
Is this for historical reasons, DO, or did you ask for a particular type of account?

Genuinely haven't heard of anyone else who has an online credit account (though have known a few who had credit with offline, independents).
 
Can't recall, tbh. This all started in the late eighties when it was a bit of a trek to the local bookie and there wasn't a 'big' bookie for miles and miles. I opened some phone accounts and, iirc, sent off deposits. Others, eg the Tote, accommodated credit facilities whereby I made the bets by phone and they either billed me once a month or sent me a cheque. Now that I think about it, almost all were like that but in those days there was a minimum stake (£5 or so) which was fine.

Over the years as more and more betting facilities came online I just applied online for a credit account and don't recall being refused. Those were the days of easy credit, bank loans, mortgages, etc. It's now many years since I made a phone bet other than correcting an issue I've identified online.
 
Jeez, if I'd found a bookie to give me a credit account in the 80s the only way I'd still be reading the form is if I was using it as a pillow.
 
Glad an answer was supplied although I appreciate it might not have been the one Desert Orchid was looking for.

Seems I was some way off with my theory which is quite a regular occurence believe me.

Wilson - couldn't help but laugh at your last couple of posts. Honest and amusing.
 
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