Milliband vs Cameron

C

clivex

Banned member
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Messages
12,720
Not so far away now

I believe the conference speeches would have resonated. Milliband made a mess of his. To my mind it wasnt so much what he missed out as the fact that yet again, he can't seem to bring himself to reach out to business or private enterprise. Blair and brown certainly did so. This is a country of smes and its not just the employers who want assurances. Hes also had a bad time with the english vote issue and all this pushes labour into the corner of the party of the celts and public sector. That won't win an election

Cameron's speech was powerful and professional. He's not always the warmest of characters and doesn't reach across in the way that Blair did but with economy going the right way it's hard to see him losing from this point.

Milliband is likeable and much of the personal criticism is unfair (although posing with a gromit pic was un fathomably stupid. As I said before, charles de Gaulle posing with a parrot? Don't think so) but I cannot see him winning even with certain electoral cards stacked in his favour

I also believe that ukip will make less impact than assumed next year. Novelty has worn off
 
Clive, I've chosen to read your post out of curiosity. It's more balanced than I'd anticipated but needless to say there's a fair amount of it I don't agree with.

I don't think the conferences speeches would have resonated with anyone bar supporters of the parties. That's the way these conferences are.

Milliband tried to do something different - I say fair play to him for that - by not working from a wad of notes, teleprompter, cue cards, post-its even, and it backfired spectacularly when he missed out that chunk.

Whether he can reach out to business or private enterprises, I can't really say. We only have your own experience for that assertion. I'd like to hear other business leaders share their view.

I take it by the 'English vote issue' you mean the West Lothian Question? I think there needs to be a wider debate on that. My understanding is that most of the northern half of England, along with Wales and NI, would prefer Scottish MPs to have a vote otherwise they would be railroaded by the ever-increasing pro-SE agenda.

Labour's problem, I reckon, is a lack of gravitas among their protagonists. It isn't just Milliband. I also think the biggest mistake they made was in choosing Ed over David.

I thought Cameron came across as slightly panicky and as a feeble attempt at acting strong. He must know the rest of Europe view him as a laughing stock. I thought his strained use of the autocue was loaded with fear of 'I mustn't do a Milliband'. (Same with Osborne.)

I agree about UKIP but defections to them from the tory ranks is only helping Labour. At the same time I do hope the traditional tories who see through Cameron will vote UKIP in their droves. As Cameron said, those would be votes for Labour.

If the conservatives do end up winning the next election, they could do a lot worse than promote wee Ruth Davidson. She played a belter in the the referendum.

I hope this debate can remain civil but I'm not taking you off ignore just yet.
 
Last edited:
they are both knobs in their different ways..Milliband has no chance of being PM..as i said before..Prescott is only person to appeal to a traditional Labour supporter and Labour party have shown they no longer represent the working classes..Prescott should be leader..i'd vote Labour if he was.

The ordinary working classes no longer have a voice and so will continue to see their incomes diminish whichever party gets in..we are completely shafted..Labour shouldn't even be called that any more..its a misnomer and cons people into voting for them as the association is still there in name.
 
EC1 said:
they are both knobs in their different ways..Milliband has no chance of being PM..as i said before..Prescott is only person to appeal to a traditional Labour supporter and Labour party have shown they no longer represent the working classes..Prescott should be leader..i'd vote Labour if he was.

The ordinary working classes no longer have a voice and so will continue to see their incomes diminish whichever party gets in..we are completely shafted..Labour shouldn't even be called that any more..its a misnomer and cons people into voting for them as the association is still there in name.
Click to expand...

I agree and disagree, EC1.

I'm not sure 'knob' is a word I'd use for Milliband. I think he wants to do the right thing but his hands are tied by trying to keep the middle-right onside.

Prescott has too much baggage to be leader but the left does need a voice. Unfortunately the right-wing media, including the BBC, has a stranglehold on UK politics.
 
BBC right wing? You are kidding surely?

What you say about milliband being tied by the "middle right" probably just about nails why labour cannot win the election. This country simply does not want a firmly to the left government. No chance.

Ec. Prescott would be a disaster electorally. Do you really think the northern working class vote will carry the country? Not only that he's too old and too explosive. He also had a very mixed record as a minister. I've always quite liked him but no chance

Alan Johnson would have been a very appealing choice but possibly too close to the unions and maybe not quite sharp enough in debate.

The point about enterprise is that you don't actually have to do much (although in fairness brown and Blair worked on initiatives) but to entirely ignore is strange in this day and age

I find him likeable but I think he can be illl briefed at times
 
Last edited:
oh no..i know he's got no chance of being leader...but it would be bloody entertaining...and the fact that he can't be is the reason i've no time for Labour and its Blair clone puppety MP's

when Blair was in..he ruined Labour for at least the next 20 years by making sure people like him got in at every opportunity..repulsive imo. they tried foisting one of his clones on us in Chesterfield when Tony Benn packed in...they lost the seat because of it to Lib Dem..and i rejoiced as it was the only time i voted against Labour ..becasue of the clone issue..and it made a difference. Local Labour party were against the clone but had to have him..Blair said so....and lost what had been a staunch labour seat for decades
 
Last edited:
clivex said:
BBC right wing? You are kidding surely?
Click to expand...
I'm largely in agreement with, DO.

Their output is in-line with the capitalist society we live. They have to compete, (if not be the best broadcaster) out there, which often pushes them into an anti-left position as they literally have to go 'where the money goes'..as it were.

You will have noticed over the years the amount of broadcasters who left Sky or other broadcasters, (Simon McCoy... Ex-Sky, Charlie State Ex-Channel 5 etc) to join the Beeb.
Vice versa, many Beeb people have left the channel to join other broadcasters which epitomises the media industry and the way BBC evolves within it.

There is little ideological output on the channel (especially left).
An Atheist like broadcaster, imo.
Others organisations openly push a righter wing agenda because they're allowed to.

I often thought the Beeb was a leftie channel, but then I had a realisation that some of their programming was just sloppy and full of politically correct dogma. I don't think this can be attributed to a profound left wing agenda though.

That would be unfair to what 'the left' is supposed to be about.
They follow the fashion, IMHO!
 
Last edited:
I think you're suffering from a bit premature myself Clive. There are a lot of reasons why Cameron is far from a nailed on certainty, not the least of which would be how is Labour going to do worse?

  • Labour will pick up the liberal urban vote (the rural liberal vote will stay as it is). It remains to be seen how the now graduated students vote
  • The young generation who'd never lived under a conservative government previously are unlikely to be voting for them in the same naive numbers they did 5 years ago.
  • The Conservatives failed to reform the electoral boundaries that would have netted them 20 new seats
  • UKIP is better organised than it was five years ago, albeit the BNP won't act as an alternative to the hardened conservative
  • Labour hasn't got a dour Scottish leader
  • The last election was the worst ever in Labour party history wasn't it? I can't believe it was worse than Foot in 1983 surely?, but for all his many faults, Miliband is much more electable than Foot. If Labour's only polled 29% and the Tories still couldn't form an overall majority, it's difficult to see how Labour can deteriorate much further.

And the BBC's been a right wing mouthpiece for the conservatives for years and continues to be so. It's coverage of the Tories foreign policy (I use the word loosely in so far as the policy is make it up as we go along) has been one of the worst demonstrations of right wing political correctness you'll ever see. Only last week anti Assad groups have gone from being "pro democracy freedom fighters" - which is what the right wing politically correct lexicon was calling them through the loyal BBC 12 months ago, to "Islamist Rebels". They've completely buried Libya as a story and barely mention these days (they couldn't get it out the news everyday once upon a time). They simply don't want you to know what an appalling strategic misjudgement and fundamental display of duplicitous dishonesty this government has been guilty of. William Hague's whole tenure of Foreign Secretary was capable of being crucified by a seriously impartial news organisation with a public broadcast mandate who smelt a rat. One of the most laughable ones was when he denied all the Snowden evidence and the involvement of GCHQ, (the BBC gave him a platform) only for the American's to come out 48 hours later and completely contradict him explaining to their own people why they spy on us. The BBC should have got right back onto Hague and called him out as a liar, but they obediently left him alone of course.

The BBC is loaded with conservative managers and executives and few more liberal leaning journalists. Whenever the conservatives form a government the same thing always happens and the management come charging out of the woodwork to broadcast the sort of propoganda they've been chomping at the bit to do for years
 
Last edited:
I think the bbc is a different debate but the idea it's Fox News is a bit weird to me

Some of those points are true but ultimately if the economy is tanking along at 3% next year I cannot see a change.
 
Did you see Clegg's stand up routine yesterday? Do you really see him as a credible partner for Cameron? He sounded more like an abused angling for a divorce. Having said that, I wouldn't get hung up on conference grandstanding as I'd think that by now Clegg and Cameron have an understanding that they have to say things to pacify the membership and its all a bit of an act

It was no great secret that Gordon Brown was the biggest stumbling block to a Lib/ Lab pact. He's not there now. Clegg also needs to reconcile his own party's fortunes into the equation. They've never recovered in the polls from the moment they went into coalition. Remember about two thirds of the liberal party naturally align to labour. The party base is very different to the parliamentary party. If he wants to recover some of that, then he needs to consider whether he's taking the party into an uneasy alliance they'll never shake off for generations, for the moment they're no longer able to play kingmaker, they're back to where they were under Jeremy Thorpe (alright perhaps David Steel)

Is it also the case that Cameron has looked more out of touch and wooden since he lost Andy Coulson? I think he does. With Coulson at his side and able to lend him the street lexicon he did occasionally sound as if he was in touch with the zeitgeist as it was 5 years ago. Today he sounds more like he's 46 going on 66
 
Last edited:
The speeches are important. They dominate the news and resonate. I think Cameron's was superb. Even if I was abolsutely in no agreement with any of his policies I would think the same

I would not assume that clegg will carry the liberals to labour if labour have a minority of the vote and seats. Also the loss of liberal votes to labour will probably not win seats for labour. Opposite in fact. More likely to put the Tories in and that would certainy be the case in my seat (although unlikely with cable in situ) and others like Sutton and Kingston nearby. They will turn to Tory. The labour votes in these seats are so small that there is no chance of a win
 
Last edited:
The majority of british people nowadays are a million miles away from the voters of the 80s in general most people are quite liberal minded and left of centre.The tories have about as much chance as my arse of winning an election outright,a million on!!Even with milliband as leader I think they will still win the most seats,the ex liberals will punish the party severely for joining the tories..
 
Really?

They are probably more socially liberal, which is a good thing, but economically left? No way

And how come ukip is doing so well?

Polls have right at 49% and left at 42% , if you count all lib dems as left, which I wouldn't
 
Last edited:
I wonder where ukip will be in 5 years time compared to their current astanding?,my guess is in the wilderness and the liberals at some point will have some sort of rejuvenation as unlikely as that seems.The ukip vote is not necessarily a right wing vote is it,i'd imagine a huge % of their vote revolves around immigration.
 
the lib dems were dead in the water when they threw in with Tories..i said that on a thread on here at the time..i also said after Clegg stopped that contract for forgemasters..not long after the coalition.. that he would not even retain his seat at the next election..he sold his own constituency down the river along with the party 4 years ago..he hasn't a prayer of getting reelected in his area..he's finished as leader and being a MP next May..they have long memories up here
 
Last edited:
clivex said:
Not so far away now

I believe the conference speeches would have resonated. Milliband made a mess of his. To my mind it wasnt so much what he missed out as the fact that yet again, he can't seem to bring himself to reach out to business or private enterprise. Blair and brown certainly did so. This is a country of smes and its not just the employers who want assurances. Hes also had a bad time with the english vote issue and all this pushes labour into the corner of the party of the celts and public sector. That won't win an election

Cameron's speech was powerful and professional. He's not always the warmest of characters and doesn't reach across in the way that Blair did but with economy going the right way it's hard to see him losing from this point.

Milliband is likeable and much of the personal criticism is unfair (although posing with a gromit pic was un fathomably stupid. As I said before, charles de Gaulle posing with a parrot? Don't think so) but I cannot see him winning even with certain electoral cards stacked in his favour

I also believe that ukip will make less impact than assumed next year. Novelty has worn off
Click to expand...

On the other hand it could be that it won't be long before Cameron's tax cuts will be seen as an unaffordable bribe and a bad winter for the NHS could be an utter disaster for the Tories .

Also the electoral maths is bad for them. Tory governments seldom put on votes at the next election and the polling of marginals is bad for them. A UKIP plague on all your houses vote is also likely to be bad for them .

I suspect a minority Lab Govt or a lab/lib coalition is most likely .
 
but at least they are talking about tax cuts and most will believe that they will be the party that would deliver. No chance under milliband.

The party of unions, overprotected public sector and Rotherham. The leader who wont address vital issues and cant answer them when put n the spot. The most uninpsiring leader since ian duncan smith

UKIP will be bad for labour too. if they poll as some expect... i dont think they will

i see no reason why they shouldnt put votes on. Milliband is polling dreadfully and it could easily be the new kinnock scenario that when push comes to shove, voters cant see him running the country at all

No one has mentioned that ed balls would have made for a more combative and convincing leader
 
Last edited:
Slightly off topic but related. It strikes me the that Westminster is choc full of lightweight politicians right now.
 
Maruco said:
Slightly off topic but related. It strikes me the that Westminster is choc full of lightweight politicians right now.
Click to expand...

Agree, however in my eyes Milliband is the most pathetic leader of a main political party I've ever seen.
 
clivex said:
I think the bbc is a different debate but the idea it's Fox News is a bit weird to me
Click to expand...
Yeah not Fox news but that's an extreme comparison.
I think their position in the British media is somewhat in line with most of the British media, which isn't exactly leftist!
 
Last edited:
EC1 said:
i also said after Clegg stopped that contract for forgemasters..not long after the coalition.. that he would not even retain his seat at the next election..he sold his own constituency down the river along with the party 4 years ago..he hasn't a prayer of getting reelected in his area..he's finished as leader and being a MP next May..they have long memories up here
Click to expand...

Forgemasters were promised an £80 million loan for a super-forge by the Labour government shortly before the 2010 election which was cancelled by the new Coalition. Clegg later said they may reconsider the loan and in 2011 they were granted £36 million. Meanwhile Forgemasters of their own volition, regardless of any possible loan decided not to go ahead with the new super-forge anyway in light of the Japanese nuclear disaster following the earthquake there

Anyway EC, Hallamshire is a world away from Brightside as this profile points out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Hallam_(UK_Parliament_constituency)

Big swing required if Clegg is to lose his seat to the Conservatives and I doubt that the Forgemasters business will be weighing heavily on the minds of the well-to-do electorate up in them thar leafy suburbs, particularly, as far as I'm aware, plenty of steel is still being beaten over there in that dark satanic mill
 
Back
Top