Miss V Williams

Desert Orchid

Desert Orchid

Senior Jockey
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
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Time for me to be controversial.

While I think 100/1 was far too big for MM yesterday, I will be keeping a close eye on the runners from this stable - and I hope the authorities already are.

This isn't the first time a runner from the yard has suddenly found, in a valuable race, improvement which almost defies belief.

Stan did it (as a 10yo) at Cheltenham at the new year, winning by 11 lengths.

Fintoff at Wetherby last season.

I don't get to see a lot of racing but those runs certainly had me scratching my head.
 
Did anyone hear her interview on R5 this morning? Interviewer, David Davies asked her how it compared to winning the Gold Cup 3 times with Best Mate. Fortunately despite only 2 hours sleep, Venetia slapped him back down and told him it was Hen Knight! How incompetent are these presenters? Can't they do their homework properly?

DO - shes looking for a Mr Williams you know - drives a nice car - an Aston Martin too!
 
Tony Ennis meanwhile, who is supposed to be a specialist, managed this morning on ATR to suggest that Kauto Star was going to Punchestown and that Naaqoos was running in the fillies race at Maisons-Lafitte.
 
We used to have a partnership horse at Venetia's awhile back and one of my best friends also had one with her. I'd be VERY surprised if anything 'funny' were going on there. She does not even bet and is totally unaware of all the various methods etc. She is far more interested in improving horses and how horses work as animals. I would never call her 'dotty' but when it comes to stats and betting markets she certainly is. Has no interest whatsoever.

Personally I think she is a really good, underrated trainer who gets inside of their heads & hearts and can improve horses a ton. When we were there she spoke about how even bad horses can have their peak, and if you want to be successful as owner or trainer you need to bring them to it, and make the most of that. It's all about timing, and she is an expert at that.
 
Well said Isinglass. She understands horses completely and brings them up and down thier 'scale of fitness' for certain targets, knowing they can't be vibrating on the top note all the time.

Some trainers are very good at that and fall under suspicion for it, but their horses tend to have long careers rather than being one- or two-season wonders. DO, I think you point is one only a gambler would make, but as noted VW is not a gamber, she is a supreme horsewoman - and takes no notice of the gambling side whatever.

Venetia also has all her horses put out in the field every day of their lives for the afternoon, which is a huge amount of work for the staff as they often get filthy and have to be 'done' twice in a day. But she insists that they are herd animals and only give their best when treated as so to some extent. I'd have no hestiation at all sending her a horse, on any count.
 
I read something on one of the more populist boards that was seemingly accussing her of manipualting handicaps like Desert Orchird seems to be implying, and duly shook my head, so can't pretend that I'm not a bit disappointed to see it emerge on here as a knee jerk reaction to her victory yesterday. "Desert Orchid in cheating slur - shock!!!"

The handicap was published on February 8th, so what ever Mon Mome did after that date wouldn't have affected his weight. Rather tellingly he ran in a hurdle at Towcester prior to Feb 8th where he was beaten by Kilbeggean Blade. As soon as the handicap was out however, he reverted to fences, and ran badly at Haydock where he finished 7th (Rambling Minster decided to show his true colours for the first time, as he too would have escaped the attention of the handicapper by now and Revelley would have made a more deserving target at this stage for such allegations). His other run was off top-weight in the Midlands National where he came last of 8 finishers but might very well have been trying to make the handicap for Flintoff? (very narrowly beaten into second and now heading for Ayr having been pulled out of Aintree). Her commercial and professional interests would in anycase have been better served were she able to to have manufactured the run into 'Stan' as clearly Paul Beck would be more likely to be able to supply with the better quality future ammunition that I for one have always felt she'd deliver with.

Rather tellingly, a week before Cheltenham she was interviewed at Sandown about her prospects for the forthcoming festival and said that she had a few who she thought she'd got well handicapped. This was said in the context that she didn't have a stable star capable of taking on the grade 1 races. She pulled up short of naming them, as she seemed to realise in time that such public declarations wouldn't play out very well with owners and it would also be stretching openess to unnecessary extremes as regards Phil Smith too (show me a trainer who'd do otherswise). She duly added two festival handicaps to bring her haul to 5 festival wins (all in handicaps). I mention this as handicaps only account for something like 33% of the festival programme, yet 100% of her wins there. I'd be more inclined to interpret this as evidence of a talented trainer doing very well in getting the most out of a limited string. As Mon Mome's Haydock and Uttoxeter runs wouldn't affect his National mark, I deduced that he wasn't one of the ones she was referring to having been reasonably well exposed.

The other interpretation of course is that you're suggesting shes been backing her own horses at inflated prices which pre-supposes that she could have guaranteed winning both races anyway, and probably the Welsh National before that and elected not to, in order to achieve a better price at Aintree. Given that she finished outside of the prize money in all three races, she'd have foregone a not inconsiderable pay out in return for a price in a race where she could hardly guarantee anything (and that's provided she could ensure she was the only person connected with the yard or horse who had anything on it).

I'm more inclined to take a charitable view and say she's done a very good job. There we are then, a very supportive defence of VMW, :p be sure to pass on my details please Jinny as Madonna still refuses to adopt me, and Natallie Imbruligia took a restriction order against me years ago :D
 
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LOL Warbler! Good analysis imo.

It's worth stating too that VW has only ever had a few half-decent horses, Teeton Mill being the best - and she clearly doesn't have any of those owners with bottomless pockets like Findlay or Barber to buy Graded standard horses for her yard. It takes real talent to get the best out of handicappers. Good luck to her
 
I'm not sure Findlay's that rich is he? Sure he's got a bit more than most us, but I'd be surprised if he was major league, in the same way as I don't think Clive Smith is. His penchant for buying horses probably owes more to enthusiasm I'd have thought. I suspect that Paul Beck with LBM behind him would be richer, as indeed the Lloyd Webbers might be too? and that's before you start on the big names like Hemmings, Johnson (though I think he's lost quite a bit of late) McManus, Wylie, O'Leary or Ogden (I'm sure Hemmings has the biggest personal fortune - or did?). Don't know enough about Andy Stewart or Jim Lewis but I'd have thought they out-ranked Harry Findlay?

I any event, I have little doubt that VMW wouldn't let anyone down if one of the mega bucks owners decided to entrust her with half a dozen good horses. The only ones that come to my mind were Teeton Mill and Lady Rebecca, both of which were syndicate owned, and both of which were testimony to her ability to extract massive performances out of animals which at face value were pretty ordinary prior to her getting stuck into them. Bellator was fancied for an Arkle I seem to recall and disappointed. Didn't she run something into a place in Gold Cup at massive odds? (name escapes me, but I've got in my mind Williamson rode)
 
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It's all relative of course! - I mean that the likes of Findlay and Smith are willing to pay a lot more for horses than any of Venetia's owners, and have prior winnings to do it with of course... I would imagine Venetia's are around 50K top whack - small change to the likes of Clive Smith.

It was easier to get a good'un 10 or even 5 years ago for not much money, but now the main bloodstock agents hoover up anything half decent for the major yards and they have scouts all over the place - esp all over France at the minor tracks.

Holbeck Ghyll - Vida thingy's previous horse - wan't bad, but not in the Lady Rebecca or Teeton Mill class. These are the best she's had by some way I think. Maybe this win will bring in some of the 'big boys' - but the non-gambling culture probably puts off most of them. Shame Venetia didn't get Jim Lewis; but then she would never have rung him and offered him a horse... !!
 
Shes actually very shy by all accounts. Have a good friend who rides out there and the staff are always trying to get her to socialise more - they all think shes a bit of a recluse!
 
Didnt Findley have a horse with her at Cheltenham owned with someone else?
Began with "A" I think
 
What ever the reason, some of her horses do appear to be very well handicapped, her one two at cheltenham where a long way clear of the third and Mon mome had a load in hand
 
Aachen?
Click to expand...

Bless you!

I'd be wary of any trainers that ally themselves to gamblers. It was The Winning Line (whatever happened to them?) that more or less put her on the map - and maybe vice versa - and their aim was to land coups for their members and clients. So Miss W may well not be a gambler but she knows how to plot one up. She also allied herself to the group that own(ed?) the likes of Limerick Boy, another gambling entity, in my opinion.

For the same reason (viz The Winning Line) I found it hard to take to Norman Williamson as a jockey. I was never sure when he'd appear to give one an easy time of it.

I distrust any yard that trains for the likes of Henry Rix, Willie McKay or anyone like that.

I'd love to hear Honest Tom's opinion.

I suppose if Venetia wants to invite me out for a drink, I'd probably accept. 'Twould be ungentlemanly not to, wouldn't it?
 
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You`d go out with the devil himself for a drink Grassy if there was some info available. So would I.

Re Norman Williamson ,I remember him riding a mare of mine at Worcester,finishing downfield and telling me to sell it. Richard Johnson rode it next and she won her next four races.:rolleyes:
 
Don't think there's any funny business going on at VW's - all her horses seem to run on their merits but she has a few in and out performers, the likes of Mon Mome and Flintoff being two stand outs in this department.

Now if we were looking slightly further West then we might be talking.
 
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