Nijinsky

What does you own firm's 1970 essay say about the quality of the opposition, david?

Wasn't he beating top class horses from all over the world once he started taking on older horses?

As I said at the outset, he was the horse that got me 'into' racing but I always thought Brigadier Gerard, Sea Bird and Mill Reef were better. Dancing Brave was about his level (as was Peintre Celebre at his best and maybe Nashwan). But Nijinsky did it at all trips, which is what sets him apart.

Frankel is right up there alongside Sea Bird and the Brigadier ahead of Nijinsky.
 
Desert Orchid, is there a comma missing after Brigadier or are you placing two at the front, then BG then Nijinsky?
Seen chats on other forums where the Frankel gestapo are shouting down any criticism of their favourite. I think that's a shame. We all see things differently thankfully. If not they are being just as boorish as SArkle.
It really would have been fantastic to have seen Nijinsky in '71. The day he won the Leger he had the look of the Eagles.
 
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No comma, ED. I've only seen footage of Sea Bird but I can accept how brilliant he was. I think the Brigadier was within a pound or so of him, about the same amount ahead of Mill Reef. It took me a while but I eventually accepted Frankel to be on a par with Sea Bird.

The great thing about Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef was that they were asked to win by wide margins. Sea Bird wasn't and neither was Nijinsky. Sometimes I wonder what Frankel might have achieved with a good jockey aboard...
 
I accept Sea Bird being a pound or so ahead of BG.
I just think Frankel as brilliant as he was never beat a Mill Reef, and he probably didn't beat a horse as good as Sparkler or Swing Easy: he also didn't run in Group 2s with Group 1 penalties. But those he beat he beat tremendously well so you can't argue with those people who think him the best.
I still think Sea the Stars was pretty decent. He wasn't a wide margin winner and he didn't have a crack generation to take on either, but probably better than Nijinsky's. So hard to place him.
 
Part of the issue is that people tend to subscribe to the belief that racehorses are getting better - I have my doubts - therefore Frankel must have beaten better horses. However, the very best of Frankel's form does add up to something gaviiforme.
 
gus said:
I'm sorry. I can't have that at all. Prefer Nijinsky by all means but "flattered" carries a connotation that simply can't be justified.
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What I mean by this was contained in the second half of what I said. Nijinsky’s brilliance was in his effortless superiority seemingly at any distance. Any horse that had not attempted similar would be flattered by the comparison. I am aware of just how good Frankel was at what he did. There are few you would rate ahead of Nijinsky (Frankel would perhaps be one of those, but he did not show us the range Nijinsky had).

I got into racing in the mid-Sixties. For me Sea-Bird was the example of a flawless racehorse. Arkle in his sphere the same. It takes something special to remind you of these.
 
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davidjohnson said:
I'm not going to be popular here, but Nijinsky strikes me as the ultimate rosé-tinted specs horse. No doubt he was a fantastic horse, winning so often in seemingly effortless and impressive style, but his form does lack the substance of the likes of Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave.
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Like I say Nijinsky was highly strung but had a deep vein of brilliance rarely seen since. He was the real deal without question, but a very different type to some of the others being talked about here. He certainly wasn't overrated or lacking in substance.

Have a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfluUEcN500
 
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davidjohnson said:
I'm not going to be popular here, but Nijinsky strikes me as the ultimate rosé-tinted specs horse. No doubt he was a fantastic horse, winning so often in seemingly effortless and impressive style, but his form does lack the substance of the likes of Sea Bird, Brigadier Gerard, Mill Reef and Dancing Brave.
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These rose tinted specs make him aesthetically (with the possible exception of Sea Bird) the best I've ever seen.
As EC points out, when a horse wins as easily as he, no one can pin him down to a hard and fast rating.
 
Desert Orchid said:
What was very noticeable in the video of the Arc, which I hadn't seen since the day of the race, was that Nijinsky hit the front inside the final furlong before jinking left.

I also think we punters are better informed and aware of race tactics than we were in those days and if the race were to be run nowadays, Piggott would get the Queally treatment for the ride. That's just based on one review of the race last night, mind, so I intend to look at it again soon to see if I still think the same.

Nijinsky's triple crown proved my damascene season. I turned 15 that September and had previously mocked my older brothers for their foolishness in following the mugs' game. It has been my main passion ever since.

I imagine other horses will fulfil that role for others out there.
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According to Julian Wilson , I think it was , in his book on Lester - Charlie Smirke came out and slated Lester for the ride on Sportsnight the Wednesday after the race.

I think the criticism is unfair - the horse was very worked up and did not travel as he had done before early so he settled him and came through to lead and jinked left close home which lost him the race- had he not and won by a head it would have been described as a superb ride . Piggott apparently after the race wondered whether in fact he should have challenged later or tried to go through the field but the horse was very tired close home and that is why he jinked .

MVOB - as I recall from other books also was critical of the ride until after the Champion Stakes when he accepted that lester was right and he was just not the same horse as in the KG .

He was beaten by Sassafras who had been stuffed by Gyr( also behind in the Arc ) who Nijinsky had cantered all over at Epsom and Pollet Gyr's trainer thought him to be his new Sea Bird.

I suspect without the ringworm he would have cantered all over them a la Sea the Stars.
 
Desert Orchid said:
No comma, ED. I've only seen footage of Sea Bird but I can accept how brilliant he was. I think the Brigadier was within a pound or so of him, about the same amount ahead of Mill Reef. It took me a while but I eventually accepted Frankel to be on a par with Sea Bird.

The great thing about Brigadier Gerard and Mill Reef was that they were asked to win by wide margins. Sea Bird wasn't and neither was Nijinsky. Sometimes I wonder what Frankel might have achieved with a good jockey aboard...
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Walter Swinburn in an article I read once was humble enough to admit that he believed in hindsight that had Lester ridden Shergar in 1981 through the season that the horse might not have gone over the top by the Leger and it was his youthful enthusiasm that led him to ask for the big runaway winning efforts .
 
SteveM said:
What I mean by this was contained in the second half of what I said. Nijinsky’s brilliance was in his effortless superiority seemingly at any distance. Any horse that had not attempted similar would be flattered by the comparison. I am aware of just how good Frankel was at what he did. There are few you would rate ahead of Nijinsky (Frankel would perhaps be one of those, but he did not show us the range Nijinsky had).
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Nijinsky was a wonderful horse and clearly he won over a greater range of distances than Frankel but the main reason his "effortless superiority" wasn't matched by Frankel (and any comparison apparently flatters Frankel) is surely attributable to the contrasting ways in which they were ridden. That King George is a case in point. Lester was a showman and loved that "hard held, jockey looking round" scenario. Frankel was never ridden like that. Piggott would have made him look like Nijinsky.

I can remember Nijinsky and the aura that surrounded him. He was a household name in those days - Colin Bell the Man City midfielder was given the nickname "Nijinsky" and nobody needed the allusion explained -and it's a pity he suffered those defeats late on because they took a little bit of shine off his career but he was one of the greats, no doubt about that.
 
Piggott was not a showman - if he could give a horse as easy a race as possible and it win he would do so .
 
Desert Orchid

Had a flick through Racehorses of 1970 at lunchtime yesterday, no doubt that Timeform were happy to rate him in similar lofty heights as most on this thread.

Wasn't trying to knock the horse, and Gus has made my point better than I did, but Nijinsky didn't really hit astronomical figures like some other greats because he was never asked too. The old opportunity as much as ability argument once again.
 
Ardross said:
According to Julian Wilson , I think it was , in his book on Lester - Charlie Smirke came out and slated Lester for the ride on Sportsnight the Wednesday after the race.

I think the criticism is unfair - the horse was very worked up and did not travel as he had done before early so he settled him and came through to lead and jinked left close home which lost him the race- had he not and won by a head it would have been described as a superb ride . Piggott apparently after the race wondered whether in fact he should have challenged later or tried to go through the field but the horse was very tired close home and that is why he jinked .

MVOB - as I recall from other books also was critical of the ride until after the Champion Stakes when he accepted that lester was right and he was just not the same horse as in the KG .
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That seems fair enough. I haven't taken a second look at the video yet.
 
davidjohnson said:
Desert Orchid

Had a flick through Racehorses of 1970 at lunchtime yesterday, no doubt that Timeform were happy to rate him in similar lofty heights as most on this thread.

Wasn't trying to knock the horse, and Gus has made my point better than I did, but Nijinsky didn't really hit astronomical figures like some other greats because he was never asked too. The old opportunity as much as ability argument once again.
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The 1970 KG video is very illuminating - and as I recall, did not the horses he cantered all over in the 2000 Guineas ,Yellow God and Roi Soleil , Amber Rama and Huntercombe go on to win good races?
 
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EC1 said:
Michael Kauntz came across as very intense type of chap..very knowledgeable..i knew he was a trainer but didn't know he had been Vincents no1
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Yes- Gosden of course also worked for MVOB and was the man to put the earplugs in The Minstrel before the 1977 Derby.
 
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