Number Of 180-plus Horses In Training

Well that is not surprising given the current crop.

They seem very eagar to rate the three milers 180 plus but were not so keen to give the great trio of 2 milers such ratings a few years ago.
 
Originally posted by granger@Apr 7 2008, 11:28 AM
really seems a case of double standards. I dont think VPU could live with Moscow over 2 miles
Over any distance I would suggest granger.
 
Originally posted by granger@Apr 7 2008, 11:28 AM
really seems a case of double standards. I dont think VPU could live with Moscow over 2 miles
Surely that point is irrelevant if Voy Por Ustedes has been awarded the rating for a performance at 2 1/2m.
 
Originally posted by Galileo@Apr 7 2008, 03:17 PM
I cannot believe VPU is now rated within a pound of Moscow on their top RPRs.
looks like they've used Newmill 's latest RPR as the "yardstick" to measure the performance


beaten lengths * 15 divided by distance

47*15/20 = 35.25 + 145 = 180
 
Originally posted by Bar the Bull@Apr 7 2008, 03:42 PM
Rating horses beaten by 47 lengths is a joke. Especially horses like Newmill.
Probably better off using Yes Sir's position relative to that of Tamarinbleu as these two finished a similar distance apart in Boylesport Gold Cup
 
I could chunter on about this at length, but have taken a vow to avoid jumps racing for 12 months (already broken). In truth the same thing applies to the flat though and kind of revovles around snowballing errors of judgement.

To use a comparator;

If you elected to speed rate horses using class pars, any errors, misjudgements, or rogue ratings are confined to that race alone as the rating is based purely on a performance to performance basis that doesn't invoke collateral form of other horses. This is where projection and conventional handicapping can go wrong, as a decision taken to over-rate a horse, is then compounded if that horse is subsequently used as the benchmark to assess others through. For the most part it is reliable, but one error quickly multiplies and compounds others, which in turn can spiral out of control and lead to the generation of a whole family of incorrect ratings based on a false premise.

I think it's too much of coincidence that all these 180+ horses have suddenly appeared in the staying chase division within a matter of 3 weeks. I haven't stopped to try and work out what opponent they've been rated through, but I can't help but feel that 3 of them, (I'd leave Denman out of the equation as I think there's grounds to believe he genuinely is in this territory) have been rated on the back of mistakes from other more highly regarded benchmarks, who would have prevailed had they or their jockey (delete as applicable) not made a jumping error or two and thus lost the race.
 
Originally posted by Bar the Bull@Apr 7 2008, 04:43 PM
I am no ratings expert, but I know this:

Someone is smoking a serious amount of crack, and I want some
:laughing:


Like i've stated your probably better off using Yes Sir, Tamarinbleu, this then ties into Newmill, this then should give you a decent measure of VPE's performance


It's a good one, but not 180
 
That's a very good post Warbler and I think you should send it in to the RP as a letter...
Then again why bother* if knowing that gives you and us an edge :rolleyes:

<< snowballing errors of judgment >>
This just about sums it up, and it's due to the all too human reluctance to admit having made a mistake -
which in scenarios like these, are compounded

* I guess the reason to bother, is so that horses like Moscow don't get their reputation lowered by being rated historically equal with lesser horses. If you love racing and the breed, these things do matter, quite outside of how far ratings affect breeding values
 
If you say Yes Sir has run to his OR of 137


137 + (0.75* 17.5) = 150 for Tamarinbleu

150- (0.75*11) = 142 For Newmill

142 + (0.75* 47) = 177 for VPE

137 +(0.75+54) = 177 for VPE


VPE @ 177 says he's improved 8lb for the step up in trip and although not impossible, it seems a bit too much improvement to me, however, if you had VPE as a 172/3 horse before the Mellling it is then very believable that VPE has run to 177
 
I think Schindlers Hunt provides a viable line of form. He won at Fairyhouse off 154, beating a reasonably decent field of two mile chasers so presumbaly his real mark is around 158-160. He was beaten 17 lengths by VPU at cheltenham having run gallantly so that would suggest 175 for VPU. Not a huge amount of improvement required for four furlongs and importantly, much faster ground. I think the latter is important for VPU.

On another forum, a poster was giving out that Neptune Collognes is rated as high as Best Mate. If you look at the form though....Halcon was in the 160s and Knowhere in mid 150s. In three gold cups Beast Mate beat Harbour Pilot, Truckers Tavern, Commanche Court, Sir Rembrandt and See More Business......all of whom were rated in the mid 150s except 12 year old See More Business who was rated 162. Neptune has only had 8 runs over fences and is still only seven. I think they are a very good bunch of chasers and the form book suggests that unless all the horses have been rated wrongly.
 
Surely the very simple and straightforward answer is that the official handicapper is a complete and utter fud??
 
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