Only Nick Mordin...

"Many times previously" where, and by whom, JAP? I've not heard of it being seriously debated, let alone pooh-poohed accurately. Look, the stalls are - unless you're Arena Leisure - contracted in, as are many of the staff (divoters, jumps attendants, security, catering, you-name-it) for bigger meetings at all tracks. That's all extra cost, which gets passed on to you, the racegoer. (I assume you do actually go racing, and don't just sit at home watching the channels.)

If you were to use BHA staff, as are used - for example - to vet the passports of horses arriving at courses, as starters, etc. - the cost would be in the region of £250 per day. Cost that one out over every meeting in the UK. As it's an integrity issue, it's not too likely they'd entrust the job to mere casual staff but, if they did, they'd have to pay someone a bit more than the average of £50 a meeting to do it, since the person would be on call throughout the whole day, as horses arrived. You'd be nonstop weighing them from whenever they got off the horsebox, to the last arrival, which could literally be just before the last race, if the horse was local.

You gaily assert that mobile scales could be hauled around the country 'with the starting stalls'. The starting stalls are under contract. There's no reason to expect the stalls contract to win the scales contract and the stalls would need to be recalibrated before starting each day, in case they'd gone out a bit in transit - if you've ever been to some rural courses, you'd realise there'd be every chance of the thumps and bumps along the way could affect their accuracy.

So, you add in the cost of buying the scales (jockey scales, now digital, are around £2,000 apiece, so I'd reckon on £5,000 for equine scales). I've no idea if equine scales can even be as easily transported as you airily seem to think they can. On the back of a large lorry (add in fuel and driver costs, in case you've forgotten, insurance, etc.), then deposited - where? In the stable yard of the course in question, if they have room to get the lorry in. Most yards don't allow in large lorries because of safety concerns. If it's in the horsebox park, it would have to be on entirely level ground, easily accessible and safe to use.

I could go on about this for a lonnnng time, but overall, you haven't thought this through in terms of logistics and money. You think that a quote of £2m is 'laughable' - I've no idea if it all adds up to that or perhaps even more, now that fuel's risen to an all-time high, but I reckon you need to leave the trainers to do their jobs, before you - 'the betting public' - want to dictate where horses should run as well!
 
I wrote about this in the second half of my blog : http://bbtest1.spamwar.eu/horse-rac...ng-get-the-big-price-on-celestial-081209.html.

It has also been discussed at considerable length on The Racing Forum and on the Betfair Forum.

Paul Struthers, the spokesperson for the BHA, was very aware of my criticisms of Tim Morris and of the BHA's paper on both in-foal mares and on the weighing of horses. He has never countered my remarks concerning the costing of the latter, despite my putting them to him directly.

Indeed, he confirmed that the costing had been based on the assumption that scales would have to be permanent by copying me into some of the original report:

The financial implications are of particular concern given that the weighing equipment (scales sunk in a pit, level with the ground) would have to be installed, maintained and operated at each of the 61 racecourses across the country.

Detailed estimates received by the Authority indicate that the installation and set-up costs of the equipment would total in the region of £2m. In addition, ongoing maintenance costs are likely to total between £60k and £100k each year, and would obviously increase as the equipment became older and required replacing.
 
Thanks very much for your observation about my not having "thought this through". I think you will find that I have.

You should also understand that I have championed the idea of weighing horses for many years now, including in a national newspaper, and that I have done so as a racegoer and an owner, as well as a member of 'the betting public'.
 
Galileo said:
Steve we never really did get your views on Denman in the Gold Cup. Granted he was beaten by a fair horse but disappointed given your level of confidence prior to the race?
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Denman did almost all I expected him to. He was beaten by a horse at the height of his powers running the race of his life and I believe IC deserves a decent rating for that. Denman would have won most Gold Cups on that performance, although it wasn't up to what he achieved in 2008.

At 5s I had the luxury of backing him each-way on course, although all of my off-course bets (9/1 down to 9/4) were to win. So I lost large on him. However, those going heavy odds-on Kauto were almost certainly more disappointed with him than I was with Denman.
 
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I have been trying to find out the cost of a Horse Weigh unit - the company is remarkably coy about such information - but the site at http://www.horseweigh.com/products.html should answer many of the doubts concerning accuracy ("to 2 resolutions" means to 1 kg for an object the weight of a thoroughbred horse), mobility, usability, durability and so on.

By the way, at £250 a day I would like to volunteer my services for the task. :)
 
It's exactly the same as sectional timing (something dear Mr Mordin would love to see), it could be brought in reasonably easily in the grand scheme of things but the BHA and the racing establishment are so backward that it takes a revolution to bring these changes in.

It's got nothing to do with "the betting public" interfering, it's simple information which should be in the public domain.
 
Selfishly, I would rather not see horse weight published and analysed and subsequently become just another factor that goes into making a horse's price ever more reflective of it's true value.

I'd much rather the notion that handicapping in it's current form - of past performance analysis followed by the indiscriminate levelling of ability using weight - was effective is continued to be trumpeted by both the industry and the media.

The further that the actual odds of the runners are from the true odds, the easier it should be to make money.
 
The figure I have been quoted - from a trainer who uses the equipment, not Horse Weigh itself - for a mobile horse-weighing unit is £750. If that is so, then it might indeed be best to have one at each racecourse rather than travelling them round the country.

Circa £50k initial capital outlay is, by my maths, some way short of £2,000,000.
 
Gamla Stan said:
It's exactly the same as sectional timing (something dear Mr Mordin would love to see), it could be brought in reasonably easily in the grand scheme of things but the BHA and the racing establishment are so backward that it takes a revolution to bring these changes in.

It's got nothing to do with "the betting public" interfering, it's simple information which should be in the public domain.
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It's because racing is run by the bookmakers. Get rid of bookmakers and we can have an industry the rest of the world can only aspire to.
 
Ironically, Mordin was the staunchest critic of sectional timing for many years.

Some people tell me that the ability to change your mind after years of maintaining vehemently that the world is flat shows great intelligence. Then again, it could be interpreted simply as showing great stupidity in the first place.
 
Turning this topic around a little, if Mordin etc are poor examples of racing analysis/producing speed ratings, who would people recommend?

JAP, I believe you put forward a book on TRF about biometrics, for example.
 
It was "Bioenergetics and Racehorse Ratings" by Bob Wilkins. A highly lucid and revealing book, though I am not convinced by all of its findings.

"The Compleat Horseplayer" by David Edelman is more limited in its scope but tackles subjects like the so-called Bounce Theory from a scientific point of view.

I re-read Beyer the other day, as I am analysing US racing at present, and was amazed at how basic some of it is. Similar remarks apply to Brohamer, though I thought Charles Carroll's "Handicapping Speed" was pretty good on the whole.

If there has been a good book written about form and time analysis combined then I am not aware of it, and the likes of The Weekender and Racing Post seem scarcely to be interested in fundamental analysis of that ilk.
 
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