Pamplona Bull Run

And I'm not too sure when a Master of the South Staffs had an affair with a leading Hollywood lady, either... or got to be the main feature of colourful posters... or had roses thrown at his feet... women waiting for him... an audience with the Pope and an invitation to dine with the King...



... a couple of pints down the old Stocks & Gibbet doesn't have quite the same cachet, however good their steak 'n' ale pie is.
 
The question is Suny, why do you enjoy bullfighting? It's so barbaric, pure torture.

I'd rather be a horse running in the National, than a bull or a horse come to that, in the bullring in Madrid.

There's lot of difference between bullfighting and foxhunting, although I support neither. At least the fox has a chance, the bull has none whatsoever.
 
Oh for ffs, Brian, fighting each other is what I meant, as you well know.

If some on here had one ounce of common sense with reference to animal behaviour, then you would be aware that the bulls you are referring to in the arena aren't actually fighting - they are defending themselves from attack in what is, of course a massively threatening situation to them. The fact their behaviour becomes overtly aggressive is obviously what attracted some lunatic Latin to the possibilities of the Bullfight.... and the rest is history.

And I'll tone down the word 'enjoy' when used to fighting each other - its anthropormorphising bovine behaviour patterns which I should know better than to do. 'Relish' would be a better description perhaps. With horseradish...

Now, I hope that's absolutely crystal clear.... obviously around now on this forum it's become necessary to spell out in words of very few syllables exactly what one means because it seems to be the forum hobbyhorse right now to inject just about every topic up for discussion with at least three interpretations, none of which probably what the author intended......
 
Originally posted by Songsheet@Jul 10 2005, 08:15 AM
Now, I hope that's absolutely crystal clear.... obviously around now on this forum it's become necessary to spell out in words of very few syllables exactly what one means because it seems to be the forum hobbyhorse right now to inject just about every topic up for discussion with at least three interpretations, none of which probably what the author intended......
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What I wrote was called "humour". You remember humour, don't you? It's what used to make these forums go round before the days of trolls, sickos and obsessives.

Am I alone in hoping for a second coming?
 
In the same boat as Homer in that I did it last year. A lot of people don't intend to do it but after a night of Kalimochos (Red wine & coke!) you just get caught up in the whole thing. I tell you it's some rush when them bells start ringing 5 minutes before the whole thing and then the bulls start running at you and the local constabulary beating you off the fences if you try to climb up on them!

Not everyone's cup of tea maybe but for me it was different gear.
 
Originally posted by Ardross@Jul 9 2005, 07:15 PM
Bullfighting is unspeakable it's whole raison d etre is seeing animals tormented and killed.
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James, that's not true & I'm sure you know it - you're being deliberately opstreperous by saying that! The Spanish don't get up in the morning, think "wa-haay! Let's go torture & kill a bull today, I love seeing them suffer" any more than someone who hunts things the same about a fox!

To the Spanish (and other nations who see bull-fighting as a great sport) a bull fight is an art; it is the matching of the wits of a fierce, dangerous bull and a human, either on foot or mounted. Even with darts & a sword, I'm pretty sure that most people wouldn't have the bottle to get in the ring with a wound-up fighting bull! The whole nation respects and admires the matadors and picadors for their skill and courage in possibly facing their own death; indeed, the best of them are treated and revered as celebrities.

With regards to my own view of bull-fighting, I am fairly ambivalent having not actually witnessed one live. It is something that I very much want to do; in the area of the world in which I live it is a much esteemed art that is steeped in tradition and I wish to experience the local traditions and rituals - after all, why come out here to live if you don't immerse yourself in the way of life and partake in these experiences? I believe strongly in the saying "When in Rome....". I am also very much of the opinion that people should not pre-judge things of which they have little knowledge and no experience; that is ignorance and hypocrisy in my view. Why do people criticise things about which they are not privy to the full facts surrounding them? In this part of the world it is seen as a great art & I think it is unfair for people living thousands of miles away to condemn an entire nation about something they know very little about and something which is a great historical tradition for the country and does, after all, not affect them one whit! I have also spoken to English people who have seen fights and have urged me to go - one Englishman urged me to go and said that it was simply a joy to watch. Being a horseman, he said that the bullfights conducted on horseback are amazing - he said that the horsemanship skills displayed are simply incredible and well worth seeing.
 
QUOTE (Ardross @ Jul 9 2005, 07:15 PM)
Bullfighting is unspeakable it's whole raison d etre is seeing animals tormented and killed.


James, that's not true & I'm sure you know it - you're being deliberately opstreperous by saying that! The Spanish don't get up in the morning, think "wa-haay! Let's go torture & kill a bull today, I love seeing them suffer" any more than someone who hunts things the same about a fox!
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But what practical purpose does bullfighting serve?
 
I have never heard of an art form that requires the tormenting and killing of animals. You call it an "art form " if the fact that it requires skill gives rise to the description then surely the practitioners of bear baiting could say the same.

It is wholly unjustifiable and defending the indefensible .
 
Hang on people - did you read my initial post? I said that my views on it are ambivalent at present as I have not seen a bull-fight so feel that I am ill-equipped to comment much further. Go ahead & have go at me for calling it an art form if you so wish - but it is a simple fact that it is considered to be an art form, not my opinion, so there's little point in arguing the toss over it! What I am defending though is the concept that people should be fully aware of the facts surrounding what it is that they are slagging before they jump on the band wagon & slag it off. So the Spanish enjoy it - what is that to you? Leave off having a go at Suny about it - he is entitled to enjoy what he wishes! I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm easy picking as I'm a barbaric, fox-hunting, game-shooting heathen, too - naturally I'm fully endorsing of any bloodthirsty treatment of animals! B)
 
Shadow, you don't need to see a bullfight live to come to a decision that it is barbaric and whichever way you look at it, the bottom line is that it is.

It's true that I wouldn't get into the middle of the ring with an injured, terrified live bull, but then I'm not trained to do something like that.

I suspect that the more dangerous animal would be a fit and healthy bull, but by the time the 'fight' actually gets serious, the bull is not in that sort of condition at all. After the initial teasing, chasing around, loss of blood and heat of the day has taken its toll, the bull is a lot easier to handle by the matador until the time of killing.

I don't need to be in attendance to understand where the art and tradition comes from, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it's the torture of an animal, amid much ceremony to a point where it's publically slaughtered.

How you can support such a 'sport' I'm not sure, but that's your decision. I'm not 'getting at' Suny, just asking why he finds it enjoyable. In my younger days I have been very involved with hunting, that doesn't mean that I support it now, but I can appreciate both sides of the discussion.
 
So, wonderful horsemanship at bullfights? And what about when the bull goes down on a knee and upwardly gores the horse in the belly, twists his horns, and disembowels it? Now, that surely makes it a spectacle worth enjoying? Lots of artistry at work there, as the horse tries to get away from a second gut-goring, his intestines spilling onto the bullring floor. Hurrah! Applause! The bull scores! :lol: Bravo, toro! Bravo!

The horse is then removed for despatch and a replacement is brought in. Can he smell the blood? Can he sense the aura of fear? Nahhh... of course not, he's too busy enjoying the magnificent horsemanship being displayed on him - what a lucky, lucky horse!

Bulls won't hesitate to lock horns with each other in defence of their territory and the right to have first pop at the cows, in just the same way that rams do, stags do, buffalo do, and if anyone doesn't understand it's perfectly natural, they need to watch National Geographic, if not actually read a few books. Stallions fight for the same reasons - to control the herd and the mating prospects. Unfortunately, horses are also perverted in their use, as are the bulls, for the joys of the bullring. No amount of padding saves them from a bull truly determined to defend what he believes are intruders in his space, however disoriented he is at the time he is shoved into the ring. Artistry? Don't talk a load of Jackson Pollocks!
 
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