Paris

sunybay

sunybay

At the Start
Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
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Location
Madrid
Very dangerous things are happening there.

This problems are the first of many many to come in France and rest of european countries.
The politic of not integration and the big number of arab inmigrants will be a huge problem and it is time to think what are we going to do.

any comments?
 
Paris has been threatening to explode for many years now. The massive African population (mostly Algerian/ Moroccan) are disenfranchised with the government it feels has almsot written them off. The Parisian suburbs are not nice places to go if you have a white face.
 
The Interior Minister called the inhabitants of the suburbs " scum " - not the best way to calm the situation. Worrying is the spread to other cities.

It is notable that alleged misuse by the French police of ID cards has been blamed for sparking tension.
 
Having been fairly brutally colonized by the French until relatively recently, I've often wondered why on earth people from their ex-colonies would expect the French establishment to be any more fraternally-inclined towards them upon their arrival in France? If this were ever a case of what goes round, comes round, this is it, unhelpful though that is to think it. Waving the tricoleur and incanting 'liberty, fraternity, equality' may not work for the nouveau sans culottes, but they have taken to the barricades in a particular style which the French should recognize and empathise with.

The failure to control the huge numbers of unskilled and illegal immigrants from their past colonies, leaving them to scavenge at the bottom of the jobs and accommodation barrels, was always going to have this sort of effect one day. When we tried to get the French to control their escapees across the Channel, they did bugger all about it. Their controls were a farce, quite possibly out of apathy or even corruption, I imagine. As long as the North African emigres scuttled about taxi-driving, cleaning, or selling touristic trinkets, they didn't care, and especially they didn't care to integrate them into French society, in the same way as they had never cared to integrate themselves into the societies they overran and colonized.

It is no good putting out the 'Welcome' mat either deliberately or by default, and then doing nothing at all to make your guests feel welcome, with a full run of the house. If you can't accommodate your guests, then you shouldn't let them slide in through the back door and pretend they're not there. Better to have stiffer controls, so that those who come in ARE needed and wanted, and can realistically help to support their families at home, than thousands who aren't, and can't support themselves, let alone their families. The damage done in France is self-wrought - I have no sympathy for the government agencies who've let down the genuine hopefuls along with the no-hopers.
 
I've just had a look at Arab News online, and it's reprinted an excellent article in The Observer by Trevor Phillips of the Council for Racial Equality, dated 7 November. I don't know how to access the original, but it's a very sensible and balanced bit of writing. One of the interesting points he made was that the French black and Arab emigres have seen the way in which African-Americans from New Orleans were abandoned following Hurricane Katrina, adding to their own growing unrest about being disenfranchised in France. Their unemployment rate in the Parisian suburbs is twice that of the national average, and their own unemployment rate 14% versus a national average of 9.1%. They live for the most part in unpoliced, violent and slum areas, and as Ardross says, the recent reference to their youth as 'scum' will hardly help to calm matters down.

There doesn't seem to have been any attempt in France to set up organisations similar to our Council for Racial Equality, which has surely been helpful to some degree in setting up local offices, and helping the variety of nationalities and religions coming to the UK to integrate a little better.
 
The supposed unployment figures are not real. Many people there have jobs like drugs dealing and extorsion.
People there want to have their own laws.
I think the interior minister told what these people are but in this hypocritical world in the europe we live it is not politically correct to say whay you think and in this case what it is.

The first thing to do is to be hard with them and send the message to this kind of people that they are not going to achieve anything in this way, the extorsion is something that any serious goverment can not tolerate.


What is happening there is something that is going to happen in other european countries(including spain) and if we look weak it is going to be even worse.


I think in Europe there have been a huge mistake being so permissive with this people, the islam religion is completely against of many of our costums and especially against many of our laws and being so permissive is having consecuencies.



Would you imagine what would happen with european people living in the north of Africa if a european would have attacked in a terrorist act people there,
Would you imagine the building of a Church there and you having the chance to go to the church there?
 
What about the treat to women?

In some of those countries women are not allowed to smoke, to drive or to vote.
What about the clothes they oblige women to wear.

And not to talk about the justification of the terrorist attacks of the last 5 years.

2 years ago the Irani prime minister(and he was not as radical as the one they have now) came to Sapin and he didnt want to sit in a table in which othe people were drinking wine and either in company of the a woman who was our foreign affairs minister in that time.


Not to talk about the abaltion to little girls that is also pratiseed by many even in living in our countries.
 
Suny,
may be they should all be carted back to where they belong?

While they are being transported,perhaps the IRAELIS could use them as target practice.

Would give the orrible people from Palastine a rest.

What do you think?
 
I think the linking of this trouble to an observation of disenfranchisemnet in New Orleans is an intellectual stretch to say the least. I don't believe there to be co-ordinated political agitation - just a pressure cooker reaction, a la Bristol, Moss Side and Toxteth etc.

What is clear to me is that it is now mainly recreational rioting - better than watching telly.
 
Rumours

I prefer another solution to the problem:

Allow to enter in Europe all the people who wants

then all of us to convert to the Islam.


Give them a house for free and a car also.


Then go to UN and allow Iran to have the nuclear bomb, if they want allow tham also to attack Israel and finally have an invitation for Castro and Chavez to Europe to teach us of how to insult the yankees.


That would be a great solution to this problem and everybody in world would be happy and we would have the civilizations alliance and we will be in peace.


It sounds great!!
 
Agree with your last statement AC.
There will be a lot of them joining the bandwagon and not even know why they are rioting.
 
Gareth, well done! Suny is clearly anti-Islamic, but, living in a country once governed very effectively by the Moors and where beauties like the Alhambra Palace, among many others, are examples of Islamic architecture and therefore its culture, I do find his remarks fairly hilarious, when they're not purely, blindly, Islamophobic.

AC: but you and I are not black, nor Arab, and presumably you're not living in a slum any more than I am, in a country that should either have had the guts to have denied me entry, or the decency to have offered me a fair wage. Therefore, I don't think we're entirely entitled so say it's a stretch to see the abandoned blacks of New Orleans (and a smattering of po' white trash) as a reason to fire up our anger. New Orleans, don't forget, was once French-governed territory, so there's no big stretch to see a certain - if distant - linkage to the treatment of people of a shared ancestry. And don't you ever mention Cromwell again...
 
Originally posted by krizon@Nov 7 2005, 10:39 PM
I do find his remarks fairly hilarious, when they're not purely, blindly, Islamophobic.
Click to expand...
I was waiting for this reply.

I see you are not aware of 11S,11M or 7J.

What a casuality most of the people in the Paris incidents are islamist.

They are simply in colision with our lives and we are so coward at the moment that we allow them to do what they want here even out of ours laws.

They dont want to integrate in anything in our countries.


About the Alahambra and other things, it is a very beatiful place but spaniards were not very happy when arabs dominated the countrie for such a long time.


finally, the treatment to women is simply unaccetable here.
 
Suny has a very good point.I certainly don't agree with all his views but we do have two cultures on a collision course.
 
Of course not, Suny: I live in complete and total ignorance of everything and everyone around me. I will not bother to even attempt to discuss anything to do with Muslims with you, since you assume they're all bloodthirsty madmen, in the same way that all the Irish are. And the Germans. Oh, and the Belgians used to be. Hmm, yes, the Russians seem a nasty lot, if their recent past is anything to go by. And your country's glorious Christian heritage - the Spanish Inquisition, the sword-wielding Conquistadores - well-known for its tolerant and benign attitude, I believe? Please, shut up, Suny.
 
Originally posted by krizon@Nov 8 2005, 02:25 PM
Please, shut up, Suny.
Click to expand...
shut up?
why?
I talked about what I want, I am sincere and quite probably I am right.

But nowdays it is politically correct to be a coward and speak about the peace and all these silly things.
What is happening is that they have declared the war to us and we will have to be in front of them if we want or if we dont want.
 
Although I disagree with much of what suny has to say, he has every right to say it. DONT shut up, suny.
 
There are 60 million people in France, 6 million of them are Muslims. I always find it strange that there are people who think that all 6 milion are evil people who are rioting and causing eath and destruction. To me that's like saying that there are about 5 million Irish people who prefer to live in a republic who are responsible for blowing up London and other places in the 70s and 80s. Not to put too fine a point on it - it's rubbish. And to those whio say that "they should go back where they came from" then the bulk of them would need to go back to - France!

I'm afraid that one of the reasons why I am more and more finding this forum tiresome is not because of views that people hold that are different to my own - I thrive on debate - it's the blind illogicality of the arguments I find in some places on here, and that's nit even getting into the out and out bigotry worthy of a Tyndall or a Le Pen.

I was following the news in Paris on French television over the weekend and I would suggest that Interior Minister M Sarkozy, who intends to challenge for the presidenct in two years time, cannot have helped the unrest by talking publicly about "cleansing this scum from our suburbs" and "removing these germs".

The Daily Telegraph is not a newspaper with which I would always be in agreement, but yesterday's leader on the subject in that newspaper was absolutely correct:

Broken contract

France has had a week and a half of rioting. It is spreading, there is no end in sight and the government appears powerless to stop it. We are witnessing the breakdown of the contract between the state and Europe's largest immigrant population. That, as the Bill banning the hijab in schools reminded us, is on one side the acceptance by newcomers of a strictly lay entity in which no exception is made for different religious communities. In return, they are supposed to enjoy the benefits of a republic based on the revolutionary ideals of liberty, equality and fraternity.

Despite much controversy at the time, the Bill has been implemented with remarkably little fuss. It is not the hijab that lies at the heart of the present trouble. It is, rather, the failure of the state to fulfil its side of the bargain. The first generation of immigrants came to France to meet a demand for foreign labour. The second and third generations find themselves trapped without work in the estates or cités built for their parents and grandparents. To compound matters, the unemployed have become dependent on welfare. These two factors produce a feeling of helplessness, which in turn engenders a hatred of the state.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the interior minister, goes on about zero tolerance of violence, as if that were a remarkably bold policy. It is, rather, the very least to be expected from a man in his position and one that, over the past week and a half, he has seemed incapable of implementing. But beyond the obvious need to contain the rioting, the state must loosen its rigid labour laws, which make it difficult to sack - and therefore risky to take on - employees. Joblessness is high in France as a whole and about twice the national average among the immigrant communities.

The government should also reconsider a housing policy that has created ghettos with the demographic profile of the Third World and a morale-sapping dependency on welfare. These circumstances are propitious to criminality.

Dominique de Villepin, the prime minister, has held an emergency cabinet meeting, and yesterday President Jacques Chirac called a special meeting of security officials. There is talk of accelerating a social cohesion plan. This sounds, however, like another top-down solution in which alienated communities will be the recipients of public funds, thus strengthening the bonds of dependency.

What is required is the creation of conditions for enterprise that will allow those stuck in the cités to break out of drear desperation through work. This was the advice given by this newspaper during the 2002 presidential election and the 2005 constitutional referendum campaign.

The French government is now learning the cost of ignoring it.
 
An Capall - please, please, tell me you'll never, ever take Merlin to task again when he lets go about Asians, blacks, whatever. Let me see your egalitarianism expand to him in future, as you've so generously expanded it to the ignorant and unbalanced view from Spain.

Okay, don't shut up, suny bay - rant as much as you wish on the basis that out of the billions of Muslims around the world, they're all out to take over the non-Muslim, and not-enough-Muslim, world by brute force. I was wrong - you're not just suffering from Islamophobia, but paranoid Islamophobia.
 
Does that make you right-wing, Suny? You know, like most of the religious fundamentalists - Christian and Islamic - in the world?
 
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