Paris

Gareth
I dont go to church.
I dont care about what other people do want to believe in god or pray or anything, but one thing is happening that we should understand.
The islam is a religion that in contrary to others bother other people dont profess it and it is qiute clear what is happening in the world with this people.


The treatment the have with women should not be tolarated here and another point is also that if you live there, in their countries you can nott do what you want, you can not go to church and many other things while when they are living in occident we are so permissive that things end in the way we are seeing in recent years.
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Nov 8 2005, 09:24 PM
Does that make you right-wing, Suny?
Click to expand...
Yes
right wing and pragmatic.
I am not an iluse and I dont think the peace is possible in the world forever.


The Greeks had problems with Persia more than 2000 years ago and it looks the problem continue nowdays.
:rolleyes:
 
Ok so suny seeing as you "know" whats going on here what should we do? Invade and conquerer every Islamic state?????
 
The islam is a religion that in contrary to others bother other people dont profess it and it is qiute clear what is happening in the world with this people.
Click to expand...

The very fundamentalist Muslims that you decry are saying precisely the same thing about Western governments and those who support them. You're falling into the trap whereby the more you want a hard line to be taken on those whom you perceive as a threat to your way of life, the closer you come to sharing their basic ideology. You're in good company - George W Bush has done precisely the same thing.
 
What is required is the creation of conditions for enterprise that will allow those stuck in the cités to break out of drear desperation through work. This was the advice given by this newspaper during the 2002 presidential election and the 2005 constitutional referendum campaign.

The French government is now learning the cost of ignoring it.
Click to expand...

There's a touch of the Skibereen Eagle about that Daily Telegraph quote. :)

Actually, I think some of the explanations about what's going on are too facile.

On the one hand, Jonathan Lichfield in the Independent has been quietly saying that the Paris rioters are multiracial. On the other hand the World Service reporter has tales of young rioters showing him pictures of Chechen hostages being beheaded on their stolen mobile phones.

If ethnicity is not involved, then why would there now be signs of the trouble spreading to parts of Brussels? Or to Berlin? And is youth unemployment really that high compared with the 70s and 80s?

I think the physical isolation of the quarters where the rioting is taking place has something to do with it. They are well outside Paris and until something like this happens out of sight is out of mind.

A similar situation exists in some of the western suburbs of Dublin. They are physically and socially isolated places, and police, and even at times the other emergency services, are not welcome there.

If society finds certain groups "difficult" and then reinforces that message through physical segregation the sort of outcome being seen in France can be expected.
 
Gareth

That comunication technique was used by the nazis in Germany, it is quite simple, you accused the others to do the things you are doing while you are doing it.
This is what these countries are doing in this moment.
It is a very easy explanation for the people of the arab countries to tell them all the problems they have are because of Europe and USA, while the problem is the lack of education they have, the ineptitude and the corruption of their leaders.

I dont see many occidental people emigrating to arab countries and trying to persuade them to be like us.
 
Originally posted by Galileo@Nov 8 2005, 09:53 PM
Ok so suny seeing as you "know" whats going on here what should we do? Invade and conquerer every Islamic state?????
Click to expand...
Galileo
I am not talking of invading them, it is much more simply, just to put rules for not allowing there to do what they are doing in europe and USA in the las 5 years.

I dont think it is too much, at least try to do it.
 
That comunication technique was used by the nazis in Germany, it is quite simple, you accused the others to do the things you are doing while you are doing it.
This is what these countries are doing in this moment.
Click to expand...

Like how Western countries accuse Islamic countries of harbouring terrorists intent on bombing Western cities whilst simultaneously bombing Islamic cities themselves? My point exactly.

the problem is the lack of education they have, the ineptitude and the corruption of their leaders.
Click to expand...

We've so much in common.

I dont see many occidental people emigrating to arab countries and trying to persuade them to be like us.
Click to expand...

They're the ones in the military uniforms.
 
"Occidental people moving to Islamic countries"? You mean like the 100,000 British, let alone the South Africans, Australians, and other Europeans who now live in Dubai? They can buy property there (since 2001), they can drink alcohol, even though that's not permitted for Muslims, their women wear unIslamic clothing, and they can live at a far better standard of living than they did in their own countries. And, while not 'occidental', there are thousands of Christians living peacefully in predominately Muslim countries. Turkey, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Oman, Kuwait, even Iraq and Iran, believe it or not.

Suny, 'persuade them to BE LIKE US' - what the hell does that mean? Tell them that their religion, which they're practising entirely peacefully, is crap, and they should immediately be made into good little Christians? What do you think is so wonderful about your society that you think everyone SHOULD BE LIKE YOU?

I also take umbrage with your statement about 'the treatment of women in Islam'. Of course there are some abuses of women in some countries where there is fundamentalism, as per the Taleban in Afghanistan, just as there would be if Christian fundamentalism got a hold on the governance of any country. Your country's prime religion, Catholicism, has a fine record of oppressing women down the ages, too, if you can recall some of its history. Well, it has a fine record of oppressing people, full stop. When I see one pure, perfect belief that truly has no stain of blood upon it, no vengeance, no intolerance, no repression, no insistence that it is the one and only way (like your desire to impose BEING LIKE US on the Muslims) and that all others are vile deceptions to be destroyed, I might for one moment consider some good in it. Until then, for me, your views serve only to underline the pointlessness of religious and racial intolerance.
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Nov 8 2005, 06:32 PM

I'm afraid that one of the reasons why I am more and more finding this forum tiresome is not because of views that people hold that are different to my own - I thrive on debate - it's the blind illogicality of the arguments I find in some places on here,
Click to expand...
brian i can absolutely NOT agree with this.
i think it is a rather good discussion and you would be lucky to find another Forum with such a interesting and lively debate.

i recently saw a TV-Interview with the French philosopher Andre Glucksmann. His main statement was that HATE is a human constituency, and he uses this to explain antique conflics as well as the antisemitism, anti-islamis, anti-communism, anti-americanism etc.

as it is a predesposition and NOT a product of discrimination and poverty, we can never get rid of it.

you see , sometimes the skin of civiliziation looks very thin.
 
Originally posted by Wassermusik@Nov 9 2005, 08:36 AM
i think it is a rather good discussion
Click to expand...
Including the bits that say all Muslim people are rersponsible for the actions of terrorists? If you believe that's healthy debate then I am amazed
 
Brian
I didnt say all are responsible.
Almost all justified it and all the terrorist are doctrinated in the mezquitas by the imanes, thats a fact.


what would you do to resolve this problem?
 
I'm sure Suny can speak for himself, but the basis of what I read into his postings is that, due to cultural differences, trying to integrate Muslims into Christian society is liable to lead to friction. I wouldn't have thought that to be overly controversial.

A few bits clinging to the main hub of the point may be a bit OTT, in my opinion, but as a whole it is argueable.
 
My level of english is not good enough to write in this kind of posts.

However I wonder why try to do it because there is no possiblily of agreement in this kind of situation.
The arabs and left wing people will call always people like me islamphobic and the reality is that when this situation dont have solutions is when all these people dissapears and say the capitalism in the source of all the probelms in the world.


It is uthopic to try to integrate the Islam in occident, they dont want to, they hate us and their princicles and convictions are completely against our laws and this will produce battles.
 
Your argument is being diluted not by your English suny, but the sweeping generalisations you revert to. I mean for Chrissake..

they hate us and their princicles and convictions are completely against our laws
Click to expand...

As I understand it there are laws against murder, rape and theft in Islamic countries. You need to temper your arguments with reality and you will be heard better.

As I further understand things Catalonia will increase it's independence from Madrid next year and continue to speak that strange language. Do you think you will invade?
 
Melendez: the UK is secular. We are not ruled by the Church, thanks to Henry VIII. That is, surprisingly, the condition of all European countries, the USA (in spite of having Jesus II as a President), the Antipodes, etc., etc. There are plenty of Christians in them, but they're not 'Christian countries' by virtue of their governmental charters. Muslims, just like Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, atheists, Monists, and gawd knows what-all have been living in such countries for eons. (Well, the atheists had a hard time of it back in the 1500s, but by the 1700s were almost allowed, by the kindly Christian hierarchy, to speak out guardedly, rather than be publicly disembowelled.) The USA makes much of invoking 'God' in its various ceremonies, on its bank notes (I think they mean God as in God, and not Mammon), but not 'Jesus Christ', so while you may assume it's a Christian country, it is as much Jewish (Jehovah) as it is anything else.

If the ignorant, and I do mean suny bay, would take the time to read even just a tiny, little bit about Islam, one of the world's three 'Great Religions' (Christianity, Judaism, being the other two), he might be able to discuss this topic from a point of view of some knowledge, rather than blind, biased, ignorance.

And if you are really going to talk about 'integrating' in 'Christian countries', why don't you start a little closer to home, and see what you can work out in the way of integrating Catholics and Protestants - both claiming to be very, very, Christian, and very, very, right - in Ireland? How many bombs? Shootings? Maimings? Murders? But that's all right, I suppose, as long as you do it in just Jesus's name, and don't bring that awful chap Muhammad into it.
 
Originally posted by krizon@Nov 9 2005, 09:48 PM

If the ignorant, and I do mean suny bay, would take the time to read even just a tiny, little bit about Islam, one of the world's three 'Great Religions' (Christianity, Judaism, being the other two), he might be able to discuss this topic from a point of view of some knowledge, rather than blind, biased, ignorance.
Click to expand...
I am just really tired of your insults and your believe of your moral superiority.
It is a waste of time trying to debate with someone so intransigent,prepotent and arrogant as you.
 
That's fine with me, suny bay, although you are mistaken, as I don't believe there is such a concept as 'moral superiority', although Osama bin Laden and George Bush perversely and fanatically share that belief.

I won't, however, fail to respond when you decide that all Muslims must be terrorists trying to conquer the world, but are selectively blind to Christianity's attempts to do much of the same, through past Church-blessed brutal invasions and through present Church-funded missions to - as you yourself put it - make other people 'like us'. So, according to your thinking, imperialism is acceptable provided it's 'us' being imperialistic? And you think I'M arrogant? :lol:
 
Back
Top