Paul Gilligan and Flapping

Bachelors Hall

Bachelors Hall

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I need a few things clarifying about this case.

The area where I’m happy is that Mr Gilligan knowingly and willfully ran Dubawi Phantom under a different name at a flapping/unrecognized meeting. For this reason alone, the ban is sound.

What I’m not totally clear on is the issue on running horses at flapping meets. It would presumably be easier to dope a horse to its eyeballs without detection for a flapping race or run a horse as a ringer but as far as the BHA and the Turf Club are concerned, they should be on top knowing which horse is which and what’s been through a horse’s circulatory system.

I can see that it can be a concern insofar as having a horse run its balls off days before a regulation race as that would make it a more viable lay but any horse can be strung out on the gallops at home for the same purposes. Furthermore, it is highly difficult to know which horse has run when during a charity race which often bookend regulation meetings.

What’s more, I’ve spotted this in the big book

38. Participation at unrecognised meetings
38.1 A Person must not
38.1.1 own, train or ride a horse at an unrecognised meeting in Great Britain or Ireland, or
38.1.2 act in any official capacity in connection with such a meeting.

I might be barking at the wrong tree regarding owners here but in videos I’ve seen of these flapping races, the colours are indistinguishable from those seen at regulation courses. What I can say with a greater degree of certainty is that the list of jockeys who ride or have ridden at these events read as a veritable who’s who of any name that’s ever ridden a Group/Grade One winner.

A final question probably for the pointing fans – how well regulated are p2ps and do any meetings slip under the radar?

Cheers
 
Colours at P2P's (I have no real experience of pony racing in Ireland or flapping in Scotland etc) don't matter in as much as you don't have to register them so in theory we could turn up with royal blue & royal blue cap (Godolphin) or another set of famous colours and AFAIK no rule would be broken.

You would however encounter an issue if attempting to use such colours in a Hunter Chase or P2P Bumper as you need to register them and be a registered owner to contest such races (assuming that Godolphin have registered them for NH racing too so nobody else can use them).

There are plenty of good Irish jockey's who've ridden pony race winners and the same is true in the UK (Jack Kennedy & the Twiston-Davies brothers spring to mind for sure off hand but there are plenty more) and I'm not sure exactly how well enforced some of those rules listed above actually are given that I believe Paul Gilligan's horse ridden by L Gilligan was presumably at least in the vicinity of Paul Gilligan's yard at the time.

Would add that in my experience P2P's are very well run and regulated generally speaking, the grey area comes with the qualification of how often your horse has (or in many cases seemingly hasn't) hunted. The issue is fairly big given I've seen horses entered at both Kingston Blount (Oxfordshire) & Dromahane (County Cork) on the same weekend (probably the same day) but P2Pers in the UK now just need a cert so there's less emphasis on the hunting side of things & it's also worth noting that virtually no evidence is seemingly offered in light of X or Y not hunting so the only way is for connections (generally in the case I've seen a naive young woman) to admit guilt.

There have been examples in Ireland of Rules trainers having horses for pony races or flapping in the yard judged on previous Turf Club enquiries that I've read (I forget who off hand but possibly a chap who had a couple of horses in dire need of veterinary attention in 2015 sometime from memory).

The highest profile example of a horse going from a flapping race to a Rules race is one who ran off a lay-off a few years ago on the AW in the UK, the horse was very well backed (16's into sub-2/1 from memory) and won easily enough in the end off a seemingly long lay-off from a yard who'd only got the horse out of a field a few weeks earlier but had allegedly been running in (& winning) flapping races in Donegal.

Martin
 
Bachelors Hall said:
I need a few things clarifying about this case.

The area where I’m happy is that Mr Gilligan knowingly and willfully ran Dubawi Phantom under a different name at a flapping/unrecognized meeting. For this reason alone, the ban is sound.

What I’m not totally clear on is the issue on running horses at flapping meets. It would presumably be easier to dope a horse to its eyeballs without detection for a flapping race or run a horse as a ringer but as far as the BHA and the Turf Club are concerned, they should be on top knowing which horse is which and what’s been through a horse’s circulatory system.

I can see that it can be a concern insofar as having a horse run its balls off days before a regulation race as that would make it a more viable lay but any horse can be strung out on the gallops at home for the same purposes. Furthermore, it is highly difficult to know which horse has run when during a charity race which often bookend regulation meetings.

What’s more, I’ve spotted this in the big book

38. Participation at unrecognised meetings
38.1 A Person must not
38.1.1 own, train or ride a horse at an unrecognised meeting in Great Britain or Ireland, or
38.1.2 act in any official capacity in connection with such a meeting.

I might be barking at the wrong tree regarding owners here but in videos I’ve seen of these flapping races, the colours are indistinguishable from those seen at regulation courses. What I can say with a greater degree of certainty is that the list of jockeys who ride or have ridden at these events read as a veritable who’s who of any name that’s ever ridden a Group/Grade One winner.

A final question probably for the pointing fans – how well regulated are p2ps and do any meetings slip under the radar?

Cheers
Click to expand...


Nice to see you stick yer heid above the parapet, Kotkijet.

Merry Christmas, pal. :thumbsup:
 
Many cases of flapping horses running under rules down the years.
Memorably Cottage Gem won twice at Listowel in 1958 ridden by Mr C Vaughan, then one of the top three amateurs in Ireland.
The filly cornered so well there was paint on Connie's boot, sure evidence that the filly had flapped.
rider was advised by stewards not to ride the horse again but did so the following day and was duly given a five year riding ban.
He did win NH Chase at Cheltenham in 1964 when he returned.
Ballygowan Beauty won at all Kerry Festivals for Tom Walker about twelve years ago and as horse had been flapped the trainer, an elderly gent was refused his licence the following year.
One of the horses that beat Apache Gold this year allegedly flapped; allegedly.
There was a top Irish bred hurdler in France ten or so years that could not race in GB or Ireland as horse had been flapped here; name escapes me.
Tommy Carmody was one of the first flat race jockeys to progress from flapping as Liam Browne saw him "do things on horseback few jockeys could do ".
JP McManus sponsored the Dingle Derby in the 90s and brought the sport to respectable standards.
As for colours young jockeys ride in the same colours in most races as far as i know.
Ml Cronin's son , a neighbour of Jim Culloty's rode in the Best Mate colours; another local seems to ride in Apache Gold silks in all races. ( i had to put both those iconic horses in the same sentence !)
Another ex Ballintlea syndicate horse Espartano was one of Jack Kennedy's first flap winners.
 
Chestnut Charlie is the horse you're thinking of Eddie - he was beaten a couple of times in flapping races under the name The Boxer from memory before winning a few bumpers (subsequently disqualified).

Connections (Lindsay Woods trained I think?) took him to France as since there are no regulations with regard to flapping etc. he wasn't banned under France-Galop's rules, he moved back to Ireland a couple of years later, very decent horse on his day.

There's a very good horse who was running up in the Scottish Borders in flapping races a couple of years ago, I forget his name but he'd been running in big 1m handicaps (Lincoln, Royal Hunt Cup etc) and was rated in the 90's prior to becoming reluctant to race etc.

Also add that Tyrone Williams & Greg Fairley are both regulars up in the Scottish Borders at the flapping races.
 
I'll try and answer some of the questions in your excellent post, BH, in relation to what goes on in Ireland but I don't understand why the deep animosity towards flapping that began in the 18th century continues to this day.

Taking the last of your questions first, point to point races in Ireland are not 'under the rules of racing', in the sense that point winners don't carry penalties in bumpers, maiden hurdles or novice chases. But points are subsidised by Horse Racing Ireland to the tune of around €5,000 per meeting http://www.hri.ie/industry-services/point-to-point/ and administered by the Turf Club http://www.turfclub.ie/web/ .

Flapping receives no such support, quite the opposite.

In 18th century Ireland every town and village started advertising race meetings and, as far as the gentry of the Turf Club were concerned, too many of them were run by and for people of the wrong sort and should be stopped. This was the same era when field enclosures started to happen and whiskey and poitin distilling went from being a domestic activity to a commercial one that could be taxed.

In other words the rules against getting involved in flapping were formulated in the 18th century at a time when the top layer of society were making one of their periodic attempts to expand their power and they have been maintained ever since.
 
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edgt said:
Many cases of flapping horses running under rules down the years.
Memorably Cottage Gem won twice at Listowel in 1958 ridden by Mr C Vaughan, then one of the top three amateurs in Ireland.
Click to expand...

Who could ever forget that one Ed?
 
Don't know what the rules are concerning riders in flapping races in Ireland but on my visit to Dingle Races a young Pat Cosgrave had a number of rides. At the time I believe he was one of Aiden O'Briens team of riders.
 
Once he had no licence it was okay Colin.
I remember Richard Hughes winning a Dingle Derby in 1987 and one trainer from a well known family flapped a horse (allegedly) owned by a top turf Club officer .
Whether it was with his knowledge or not is debatable but one of the reasons to run The Phoenix Stakes on a Sunday in the 1980s was to dilute the bookies market in Dingle.
 
These days there's not the stigma attached to riding in pony races over the sea that there may have been back in the day - a bookmaker I knew from the North East used to swear by his trips over to Dingle every year and a girl I know from the p2p's down in the South East rode a winner there a couple of years ago (also had a winner on the AW last winter but has been out injured since, will be one to watch when she's back though).

Martin
 
I asked Jeremy Grayson if any these sort of incidents occurred in p2p and he pointed me in the direction of this article. Jeremy added there has been no repeat of anything like it in the last 10 years so it would seem the P2p is well monitored

Father and son banned over ringer
Greg Wood
@Greg_Wood_
Thursday 14 February 2008 00.20 GMT First published on Thursday 14 February 2008 00.20 GMT
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Robert Tierney, a farrier, and his son Richard, an amateur jockey, were warned off for six years and two years respectively by the British Horseracing Authority yesterday for running a "ringer" in two point-to-point races in February 2006. The decision of the BHA's disciplinary panel was announced barely an hour after Richard Tierney had steered Amazing King to success in a race at Musselburgh.

Yesterday's decision follows a protracted investigation by the BHA, which was launched after an anonymous tip-off that the Tierneys had run a "ringer" at the Old Raby Hunt point-to-point at Witton Castle on February 5 2006, and at the Brocklesby Hunt point-to-point at Brocklesby Park on Feburary 11 2006.

In both cases, Robert Tierney had entered a horse called Green Admiral to run, but the panel decided that the actual horse that took part in - and won - both races was King's Crest, an eight-time winner on the Flat which had also been placed three times in hurdle races.

Tierney, a farrier who regularly worked for the trainer John Quinn, agreed to look after King's Crest, who was trained by Quinn, in April 2005, after the gelding suffered an injury. Green Admiral, also a bay gelding with similar markings, was sold back to Tierney, a previous owner of the horse, in November 2005.

The horse that punters and bookies alike believed to be Green Admiral was well supported for its race at Witton Castle, starting the 2-1 favourite after opening in the betting at 12-1.

It won easily, and was a short-priced favourite again for its second success at Brocklesby Park. As a result, Green Admiral was a 4-1 favourite when next seen out, in a handicap chase at Market Rasen in August 2006, but finished last of eight runners. It then suffered a heart attack, and died at the course.

The panel was in no doubt that the animal that raced at Market Rasen was indeed Green Admiral, since its identification chip was checked at the track. However, having heard and examined evidence over three days, including photographs taken at the point-to-points, it was in no doubt that it was King's Crest that had competed in both races in February.

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In its conclusions, the panel stated that "running a ringer strikes at the very heart of the integrity of the sport. Here, it involved cheating punters at both point-to-points and also those who gambled on the Market Rasen race in the belief that Green Admiral had strong point-to-point form. It was also a deception of all those who competed in or watched the races."

Richard Tierney's penalty was less severe than that imposed on his father, "because of his age (17 years old at the time of the events in question) and because he was participating in the scam very much under the influence and direction of his father." The panel also noted that "it was an unpleasant feature of this case that [Robert Tierney] should have led his 17-year-old son into serious dishonesty at the outset of his career as a jockey."

Both men have until February 22 - the date on which their exclusions are due to begin - to lodge an appeal.
 
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Gilligan was 100% guilty, not the first time guys from his galway area have been convicted of this flapping to track offence. a near neighbour of his, Gerry lynch pulled the same stunt with another flapper which won at uttoxeter.


all official horses running under recognised rules, that is on racetrack or point to points are micro-chipped on raceday for identity purposes. all winners and occasionally placers in more valuable races are blood tested at these fixtures.

in flapper races, there is no requirement to produce a passport or micro-chip identifying and no testing whatsoever.
you could say anything could surface in a flapping meeting, generally it is a small circle of owners and handlers involved and most can afford £1 to £10,000 value ex racehorses, a few pay bigger prices. the Faulkner syndicate, based in Derry and the Browne syndicate from Donegal, frequently pay up to £30,000 for flat horses out of Newmarket.

The trouble arises as in the case of Dubawi Phantom. He was winning regularly on the flapper circuit for over 12 months before slipping under the radar and resurfacing on the Irish racecourse in June of 2014. If you were studying his form prior to the Uttoxeter handicap hurdle he won on the 29th of June, his track form for well over two years was regressive, it had been over 2 years since his previous track win, and his form looked awful, that of a sour horse. If form students were aware he had won a bagful of flapper races inside the preceding 12 months, the impression of this horse would have been different. The unaware punters were cheated in this case.

I can tell you for fact that in the last 4 months at least 3 horses which flapped during the summer have won at Dundalk. This track is a complete cesspit and anyone punting there needs help, not one serious Irish punter gets involved because those close to the scene know exactly what is happening.

The usual giveaway if you want to spot flappers returning to the track is to note horses who go missing from the track between the end of June and the 3rd week of August. By the 3rd week of August, with Dingle just finished, the flapping season is winding down, and many owners then decide to slip their flappers back onto the track, apart from Dundalk, others like to travel to Wolverhampton.

The colours or silks question?
there are no colours declared at flapping meetings, in fact at most falling meeting there is no racecard and no listing of runners.
each individual flapping jockey has his own set of silks and races all his mounts in those silks. One young lad may have red or another blue or another own a set like the McManus or Ricci colours.

Loads of high profile jockeys have been associated with the flapping world. Plenty of horses as well. When Liberman lost his way on the track, Tom Malone bought him for his former flapping pals and they won the Dingle Derby with him.

The 2016 Dingle Derby was won by a horse masquerading in the flapping world under the name of Mr Bowen. It was ridden to success by Pat Taaffe, the son of trainer Tom.
Mr Bowen is in fact a very decent dual purpose horse called Gold Bullet. If you look up Gold Bullet, you will note that Tom Taaffe trained him on the racecourse. Officially the horse has not run since September 2015. Technically I suppose someone else now trains the horse, though given the jockey, there would be doubts.

the dilemma with flaps and the track proper is exemplified by Gold Bullet. During 2016 he was almost unbeatable in 10f to 2 mile flaps. Now if he were to turn up at Dundalk for a flat maiden, his actual track form does not look too appetising and an odds complier would possibly price him at 25/1 or bigger. If the same compiler knew about this horses flapping exploits, those odds would shrink to 3/1 or shorter.

With young Pat Taaffe still flapping I would think Gold Bullet will remain flapping under the name of Mr Bowen. The investigation department of the Irish turf club would be aware of high profile flapping winners such as Gold Bullet/Mr Bowen, so the chances of this horse resurfacing again on the track under its current connections are nil.


The flapping scene involves a seedy element, some from the travelling community and I don't think there exists any intention from either the official racing world or the unofficial world of flapping to move from there current positions. The official world don't like or in any way promote the unofficial world, though they do accept its existence as a means to an end, in that it is a nursery for young riders.
From my minimal experience, at least half of the characters involved in flapping would make Jim Best look saintly.
 
Those of you old enough to remember The Lady's Master will remember a versatile multiple flat/hurdler/ Galway Plate winner.
Local trainer Mick Burns got the horse at 14 and successfully won p2ps for two seasons before flapping the horse.
He won flaps up to the age of 18 or 19, never was lame, never lost his enthusiasm and was a total christian of a horse.
Many local committees work bloody hard to organise and set up horse and pony meets.
Insurance has been a huge problem but the umbrella organisation have done great work over the last twenty years or so and do their best to run the races as well as they can.
Some get rewarded with John Magnier attending to watch one of his grand children win a 12.2 hh pony race as happened locally at Newmarket Races Co Cork.
 
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