Paul Nicholls Responsbility

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Bruce_Savage

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Now that Paul is very much a mainstream figure in the public eye, does he not have a sharpish responsbility to let us know if Kauto Star is running at Kempton?

I want to book my tickets now, but I won't book them if Kauto Star isn't running so will we have any clarity or closure on the issue?
 
Your choice, really, Bruce.
It's probably a top-class race even without KS, so I'd go if I could, regardless & see KS as a bonus.
Tho' I hope they don't run him - too early after the Betfair at his age, I think.
 
Anything can happen in 3 weeks though with horses, and whilst he might aim him at Kempton, he will only run him if he is happen with him. What your asking him to do Bruce is like asking Sir Alex to name his squad for a game in two weeks time today, simply impossible to do so.
 
Bruce_Savage said:
Now that Paul is very much a mainstream figure in the public eye, does he not have a sharpish responsbility to let us know if Kauto Star is running at Kempton?

I want to book my tickets now, but I won't book them if Kauto Star isn't running so will we have any clarity or closure on the issue?
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Let’s clear one misconception up before we start. Trainers, owners and other connections, have no responsibility at all to tell the general public anything. They must act in the best interests of the horse and if that means waiting until the last minute so be it. A host of things will be variable in getting a horse to post. Getting them there relies on a combination of things aligning. I'm afraid you wanting to book your tickets will be low on Nicholls' list of priorities.

With Kauto it will depend largely on whether he has sufficiently recovered from his most recent race.

The fact that yards often do outline their plans is a good thing, assuming the information is genuine. What I’m against is the double-speak and downright disinformation that some yards put out… I’d rather they didn’t say anything.
 
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Paul Nicholls has said that it's likely that no decision will be made about Kauto's participation in the King George until about a week beforehand.
 
Trainers do have a reponsibility to the public. This is simple business sense. Without "the public" the sport wouldnt exist. The idea that its "none of their business" when "they" are funding the sport is archaic and thick headed. if you treat your customers with contempt, they will eventually go elsewhere. Racing struggles like never before to get on the back pages . Probably fair to say that the publics interest in flat racing as a sport is not far off being completely dead and disasterous, near autisitic PR, as seemingly justified by some in the game is def8inately not the way forward

ITs rather as if a football manager refused to say anything at all except to the board. The FA rightly wouldnt wear it

Fortunately most trainers are not stupid and see communication as a key element of promoting a sometimes struggling sport, Nichols being a fine example

However in this specific instance, its a little silly to complain
 
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Paul Nicholls couldn't walk down Oxford Circus without being spotted and recognised at least 100 times - put someone like David Pipe in his position? people wouldn't know.

Thats how big Paul Nicholls is, along with his horses and Betfair publications he's creating himself a monster and hope he knows how to control it! - The public want to see the best, Kempton will easily sell out 25k if Kauto Star is running but can you imagine pulling him out with a week left to go? everyone has their tickets booked, kids opening up their presents with tickets to Kempton and their favourite horse not going..

Surely he knows if there is a fighting chance of Kauto Star running in the King George with just under 3 weeks left!
 
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Thats bollocks frankly Bruce

I am a jumps member there and go every year and they get a big crowd regardless. Its a very traditional fixture for many and a good ay out It certainly has never been dependent on one horse, even in the dessie days
 
clivex said:
Trainers do have a reponsibility to the public. This is simple business sense. Without "the public" the sport wouldnt exist. The idea that its "none of their business" when "they" are funding the sport is archaic and thick headed. if you treat your customers with contempt, they will eventually go elsewhere.
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What I’m saying is that the trainer’s first allegiance is to the horse itself and the owner (who pays the bills). It’s no good promising the general public that Kauto will run, so that Bruce can book his ticket, if the horse hasn’t recovered in time or the owner changes his mind.

There is no constraint on connections to tell us anything. If there were we could take actions against them when they put us away.
 
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clivex said:
However in this specific instance, its a little silly to complain
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That is the key point here. Nicholls can't have been more open, and will let the condition of the horse decide - I really don't understand the complaint here, and it's tough titty if you want to book your ticket now - if Kauto running is the deciding factor on whether to go or not, just wait, it won't sell out.
 
clivex said:
Trainers do have a reponsibility to the public. This is simple business sense. Without "the public" the sport wouldnt exist. The idea that its "none of their business" when "they" are funding the sport is archaic and thick headed. if you treat your customers with contempt, they will eventually go elsewhere. Racing struggles like never before to get on the back pages . Probably fair to say that the publics interest in flat racing as a sport is not far off being completely dead and disasterous, near autisitic PR, as seemingly justified by some in the game is def8inately not the way forward
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Complete and utter bollocks. The public put hardly any more into racing, most of the bookies don't pay levy any more. Actual attendances are at a massive low.

Plus no punter or any racing fan has a right to know anything about any owners horse. If my trainers went on record speaking about my horses without my permission and especially before I had spoken at length with my trainer, then they wouldn't have my horses for long. I'm paying their bills not the public.
 
Yes. I suppose you have a point. Racing would carry on just as it is without any attendances whatsoever, no bets placed, no tv audience, no sponsors, no media coverage

And you dont even have your facts right. Not even basic ones. "All time low?" Since when?

The publics input is entirely irrelevant of course. Of no account

You really are clueless arent you? You really think you would be racing for any prize money at all without any of the above

does that really have to be explained?

Unbelievable....

Not only that, it goes without saying that if the sport treats its followers with contempt (which is what you advocate) then it has no future at all...

I will say that i despise people like yourself (if you are an owner that is). Its maybe excusable not to have the simplest grip of economic reality (not everyone understands simple concepts) but to act as if the whole show is no one elses business stinks frankly
 
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Have to say I agree Clive,

There are too many owners in the sport who don't have the captial to really be in ownership and they are the ones who are complaining about everything, one rule for owners and one rule for the others.

It's a complete split relationship but I tell you something, at least the public are honest to themselves and understand they don't have the captial to be in ownership instead we've got people trying to live the dream causing corruption to just get by which is increasing the gap between stakeholders in the sport widening.
 
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Nobody's more important than anyone else. Everyone has a part to play and it's a bit stack of cards that would fall down if one stakeholder pulled out. Paul Nicholls has no obligation to the public whatsoever, his owner will be of first importance regarding any news with Kauto Star, he is the one who pays the bills and keeps Nicholls in business. Nicholls chooses to speak to the public, it benefits the public to hear news of his horses, and it benefits him in a marketing sense to be on the TV as often as possible. He isn't forced to do it, it's his choice. A lot of the stakeholders in racing seem to have a highly inflated opinion of how valuable they really are.
 
Flame said:
Complete and utter bollocks. The public put hardly any more into racing, most of the bookies don't pay levy any more. Actual attendances are at a massive low.

Plus no punter or any racing fan has a right to know anything about any owners horse. If my trainers went on record speaking about my horses without my permission and especially before I had spoken at length with my trainer, then they wouldn't have my horses for long. I'm paying their bills not the public.
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are you saying you expect to have knowledge that makes you in effect an insider trader then Flame?

i'm not getting at you personally here..because i can see that many owners feel like this

on one hand..i can understand the paying the fees bit..but on the other hand isn't having that knowledge giving you an edge over other punters..which is in effect giving you the ability to unfairly make bets where the ordinary punter is at a disadvantage

its certainly an interesting argument imo

when people have layed horses in the past and have gained money from having this special knowledge..have they not been punished?
 
I agree with that Bruce...so very true

Simon...true enough but i do believe its not just about self marketing with the more open trainers. Nichols can hardly struggle for owners, so (along with others) i think they are savvy enough to understand the wider picture. AOB isnt exactly obliged to talk to the public and certainly doesnt need to and probably hates the attention, but he does...

Godolphin is an even more prime example of an operation producing excellent Pr at no direct obvious benefit to themselves
 
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Did you read Clive Smith in the Telegraph? Toughest decision he has ever had to make, and I believe that is why there is no news yet, Kauto a modern day legend and they want to ensure he does not go out without giving the best he can, if he runs in the KG and under performs not only will trainer & owner rue it but you can bet there will many lining up to take a shot at them, damned if they do damned if they dont - nothing to with letting the public know as they dont know yet...

Extract...

After he finished second to Denman in the Gold Cup [in 2008], he looked to be in great form at home, yet he went to Aintree and was just beaten by Our Vic, which he should never have been [if he was at his best]. The fact is that he had a hard race in the Gold Cup, yet he was bouncing a few days later.”
 
The fact of the matter is, Owners buy their horses, they pay for them and they fund everything to do with that horse. They employ a trainer to train their horse. Now that trainer is effectively employed by the owner, without the owners horse or horses the trainer would cease to exist. All of the owners horses are his horses, no one elses. So any decisions and so forth about those horses would of course be spoken with to that owner, any chance a horse may have would be spoken to with that owner. Now a trainer might decide to speak to the media but they are under no obligation to do so. They are employed to do a job and that owner is well within their rights to say I don't want my horses and their chances discussed with any media or so on.

At the end of the day the owner is paying for those horses, they are their property and whether any punter disagree's or not, why should someone paying upwards of £15,000 per horse per year feel a need to have their horses chance discussed. A punter having his bet or what have you bares no relation to that horse. It's their decision to bet, no one forces them to.

It is also not inside trading. Inside trading is when you provide information which you shouldn't be privy to. If you own the company you are a stakeholder, you control your stock. Every horse of an owners is it's stock, so it is down to do what they want with it.

Let me put it in simplest terms, If you go out and spend a lot of money on something, that is your pride and joy, you pay for it , its yours to enjoy and you reap the benefits from it.

Why would you pay for something and be the last to know, or feel a need to let others know.

No one in the industry has a need or is forced to speak to the public. The likes of Sir Mark Prescott, you won't see him saying much. End of the day if you are paid to do a job by someone you do it, and if part of that job is not to speak about shop out of shop, then that's your job.

A lot of owners would happily talk about their horses chances, or about their plans, through the media whether it be by themselves or their trainers. There is nothing wrong with this, but the announcements would be made when each party is comfortable to do so. This would be once the owner (who is paying for the horse) and the trainer (who is paid to act at his owners best interest) have come to a decision they are happy with.

Now lets put it simple, if I had horse 1 working 10L clear of horse 2 who won last week, if say I was planning to back horse 1 which I've paid all year for and I own, I would be outraged if I was to get up at say 7am and read on my trainers blog that he had told the world his opinions of my horses chance before I had a chance to do anything myself.

Under the inside information rules, it states from the BHA, that a trainer can only put information in the public domain if the owner allows, and that an owner can request to their trainer that they don't speak to other owners or so on about their horses.

I've never had any problems with telling people what I think about my horses, and whether I think they will run well. But I would do so after I'm on the horse if I fancied it, or if those who are involved in the horse, know already. If my trainer went discussing decisions about my horses with the press prior to talking to me, in my opinion this would be a sackable offence and to be honest I don't know any trainer who would be foolish enough to not put their owners first and act how the owner wishes them to act, quite simply an owner employs the trainer and what they say goes.
 
EC1 said:
are you saying you expect to have knowledge that makes you in effect an insider trader then Flame?

How are you inside trading ? You own the horse, therefore you have the right to know everything about the horse, given it's your horse and you are paying for it. You seriously don't expect people to pay fortunes and not know anything about their own horses do you ?

i'm not getting at you personally here..because i can see that many owners feel like this

Put it like this, If you created a brilliant recipe for a cake, and it was the best cake in any shop, how would you feel if your cakes recipe was broadcasted for the whole world to see! At the end of the day a trainer is employed by an owner, they are paid to train the horse for that owner, and the owner has to give that trainer an authority to act on their behalf. So the buck lies with the trainer and the trainer has to act on his or her owners wishes and respect their decisions. If you are paying for something, you don't want to be the last to know and quite rightly so !

on one hand..i can understand the paying the fees bit..but on the other hand isn't having that knowledge giving you an edge over other punters..which is in effect giving you the ability to unfairly make bets where the ordinary punter is at a disadvantage

You have that knowledge because you are the one who owns the property !! How hard is that to grasp. It's not about inside info or anything because the property is yours, you own it, you do what you like with it, that is why you pay for it. Put it like this, If I Own Manchester United, I would expect the manager I employ to tell me about any injury issues and so forth before the media as it effects me, end of the day it would be my team and I would be the one paying for it. The same way with a horse. If I own a horse and I'm employing someone to train that horse it is me they converse with, then if I chose to make our findings known publicly that is my decision, you are under no obligation to do so and neither should you be. I ask you more, what gives you as a punter more of a right to know about my horses which I am paying for that me, I've never heard so much rubbish in all my life. It's down to me or my trainer if I chose to make any comments about my horses, not any governing body and they wouldn't be able to implement such a rule anyway as it would be completely unfounded.

its certainly an interesting argument imo

when people have layed horses in the past and have gained money from having this special knowledge..have they not been punished?

Here you are talking about something completely different. You are talking about corruption. As an owner, or a trainer you can not lay your own horses, this is something you agree to and cohere to. I am in agreement with this. So in theory it is not an issue. Any owner who lays one of their own horses knows full well the consequences should they be found out and is breaking the rules in which they agree to and would be removed from the sport, also if it was deemed they deliberately ran a horse to get beat and laid it for personal gain, basically committing fraud then there is every chance they would find themselves in a court of law.

No one is talking about laying a horse here, it's about the information that a trainer shares with his owner and whether it should be made public or not. I would argue it more wrong if my said trainer were to go on record saying my horse needed a run, or was badly handicapped in his opinion, as then a punter may decide to lay my horse on what he thinks my trainers opinion indicates. However my horse would still be trying to do it's best, it just might not be good enough. Yet if it was beaten a punter would have taken advantage of this and if such horse would win, the punter would be fuming thinking they were put away, but in any case it's their decision to act as they see fit. Every horse is in a race to try and win, if it's not then it shouldn't be in the race, that is fact. Personally I feel the problems within racing all stem from Betfair and other exchanges and I for one, would be happy to see the websites closed down because all they do is aid the risk of corruption which is surely wrong.
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I understand all that Flame..you may think me thick but i'm not.

just calm down..you coming across as a very arrogant person

you state in other reply that you don't mind info getting to public domain as long as you are on at bigger price..which is in effect getting a price the horse shouldn't be..if all information was in the public domain

i understand all the..i pay bills so want to gain from it as much as possible..but at end of day..you are basically profiting from others ignorance

you can dress it up all you like..but its gaining an unfair advantage..morally..but in racing terms..that reads..its perk of owning


like i said..its not a personal attack..my comments were to point out that being given an edge through owning a horse and the info that gets you is generally going to result in punters giving those inflated prices to owners

you compare it to owning other things in life..but owning those other things comes to an end when you buy it..you don't take money of other people in future with those other buys
 
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Well at least its come down from being so openly hostile towards the "public" but frankly if owning a horse made me so mean minded and miserable, I wouldnt bother
 
Loved this bit:
when people have layed horses in the past and have gained money from having this special knowledge..have they not been punished?

Here you are talking about something completely different. You are talking about corruption. As an owner, or a trainer you can not lay your own horses, this is something you agree to and cohere to. I am in agreement with this.
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It isn't corrupt to pass on information about winners or losers (though Flame and the BHA would like us to think so). It is against BHA rules, but they are a load of protectionist hooha anyway, and I can't ever recall anyone being drummed out of the game for telling that a horse was out to win, after being held back previously.
 
Paul Nicholls reads the forum NAP!

Kauto-Star-007.jpg


Paul Nicholls has confirmed that Kauto Star will bid for a fifth victory in the King George VI Chase at Kempton on Boxing Day.

The legendary chaser looked a spent force when pulled up on his final start of last season at Punchestown, but made a brilliant return to action in the Betfair Chase at Haydock, beating last season's King George and Gold Cup hero Long Run.

Connections have been in no rush to commit the 11-year-old to the Festive showpiece, but the champion trainer has now given him the green light to join stablemate Master Minded, like Kauto Star owned by Clive Smith, at Kempton.

Kauto Star will be ridden by Ruby Walsh, while Master Minded will be partnered by Daryl Jacob.

Nicholls, the champion trainer, said: "I've had a chat with Clive and we're going to run both Kauto and Master Minded.

"Ruby's [Walsh] not going to get off Kauto, and Daryl [Jacob] rode Master Minded the other day and will ride him again."
 
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