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Point Blank: The Cost Of Being Right

That is a great piece mate and i just hope that some of the ignoramus's who try and ram that sort of stuff down punters throats read it.
That said, they will diss it and say that they are right and the rest of us just dont know what we are doing.
You know who they are, they know who they are. I had a bit of a run in with one of the worst culprits (ATR) and i obviously got to him because he quoted something i said in his next column. :)

Good stuff.
 
I don't knock anything that works for people or how they enjoy looking at racing, one man's meat & all that.
Imo if people are smart they'll take on the useful bits of any approach & not be dismissive just cos its outside their skillset.
 
Doggy is driving a van; images of the red bull ad spring to mind.
Brendan Behan once spoke to an audience of academics of the dangers of classifying literature out of existence.
When asked, he gave the following example
" 'A clerk , employed by Ferrier-Pollocks took a stroll on Sandymount Strand and got wet to the ankle' is an example of prose .
Had the tide been in it would have been poetry "
 
pawras said:
I don't knock anything tht works for people or how they enjoy looking at racing, one man's meat & all that.
Imo if people are smart they'll take on the useful bits of any approach & not be dismissive just cos its outside their skillset.
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And thats what got my back up. His line was, "Anyone who doesnt use sectional timing doesnt really know what he is doing".
 
Quixall Crossett said:
And thats what got my back up. His line was, "Anyone who doesnt use sectional timing doesnt really know what he is doing".
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Me I'll look at something , if I like it & view it as useful I'll use it if I don't I won't , I don't have time or inclination or give a toss to argue about info people should or shouldn't be using
 
Another fine article on every level in my book.

Pithy, not overlong, just the right level of abrasion, the de rigueur trademark Slim cutting/dark humour - plus it helps that I agree with it.

I worked on The Independent racing desk with Angus McNae a few times, the then Racing Editor John Cobb was fond of taking in waifs and strays (I should know, I was one of them - that's how I ended up there after TODAY closed in 1995 and my job there went with it).

I won't call McNae a failed trainer because to fail at anything you at least have to have had a go at it and far too many lack the balls to have a go at anything in this life.

But it didn't work out for him and his friend James Willoughby (who I also worked with for a while) persuaded Cobb - who would have given work to literally everyone in the world if he could - to hand McNae a few shifts.

Willoughby and McNae later moved on to RacingUK.

I wouldn't have McNae down as much of a judge tbh and, even if he was, all his material is in the public domain for all to see - no value in following what everyone can see.

Now let's talk about someone I consider one of the all-time best judges I know.

For this man, who maintains a low profile which I'm not about to undermine, betting is an art, not a science, and he never tries to quantify any performance.

He bets with his eyes, he bets what his gut tells him is value and, trust me, he wins absolute fortunes and never gives it back.

You'll never win long term following someone else's publicly-available numbers, you might have some success following your own numbers (especially in a niche area where the publicly-available competition is poor) but you'll only win by honing then deploying those attributes that are unique to yourself.

All IMO.
 
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Give Angus his due, he and James were a fine double act that entertained and informed .
Given the data is available, someone has to present that data in a style that means something to those who want it.
Racing is first and foremost an entertainment industry ; we all have our parts to play, our racing lives being seven ages if we're lucky ; or named Luck.
My mate Paddy recalls a tale Ruby Walsh apparently told of being at the start of a race when Paul Carberry asked him if the race was over hurdles or fences.
 
Angus McNae is my twin. In that he was born on the same day (same year). I once said that to Nicky Carlisle and he really thought he was my actual twin.....I've never actually met him let alone in the womb.
 
Agree with all of this; while I swear by sectionals,it's clear to me that SR,Willo and Mcnea are so engrossed in reducing them to maths that they eschew what's patently obvious to the naked eye.
Seriously doubt any of them turn a profit.
 
I can't be sure, but I doubt if any of the racing media make a profit from their betting.

That's a sweeping statement, there's a fair few of them, but if they did why would they need to work for the RP, RUK or whoever employs them?

Plus a few of them say or write things that give them away for me.

I don't actually mind this - they're just people making a living - but there's a saying in football about "staying humble" and if they ever fail to do that, when I already doubt if they actually win, I raise an eyebrow.

I don't think he's a bad bloke overall, but Simon Rowlands seems a particular offender.

He's into what he's into, fine, whatever.

But when he starts talking about anyone who doesn't use the tools he uses not really understanding racing, or having a pop at individuals (like Johnny Dineen) he opens himself up to scrutiny about his own lifetime P/L as a punter.

Tbh, it seems to me that he's an academic, not a punter, and feeling he academically understands the game (conveniently by his own definition of so doing) is more important than actually winning at it.

But to people like me the two go hand in hand - if you can't win at betting you don't truly understand racing.

And it's not a public competition, it's not about being better than the next guy.

It's about winning as an individual and it's actually possible to do that with quiet dignity and quality, rather than feeling the need to denigrate others along the way.

The best punters I know never criticise anyone else - they're not interested in what anyone else does - they just quietly focus on what they're good at and accumulate wealth, while staying under the public radar.
 
Ian_Davies said:
I can't be sure, but I doubt if any of the racing media make a profit from their betting.

That's a sweeping statement, there's a fair few of them, but if they did why would they need to work for the RP, RUK or whoever employs them?

Plus a few of them say or write things that give them away for me.

I don't actually mind this - they're just people making a living - but there's a saying in football about "staying humble" and if they ever fail to do that, when I already doubt if they actually win, I raise an eyebrow.

I don't think he's a bad bloke overall, but Simon Rowlands seems a particular offender.

He's into what he's into, fine, whatever.

But when he starts talking about anyone who doesn't use the tools he uses not really understanding racing, or having a pop at individuals (like Johnny Dineen) he opens himself up to scrutiny about his own lifetime P/L as a punter.

Tbh, it seems to me that he's an academic, not a punter, and feeling he academically understands the game (conveniently by his own definition of so doing) is more important than actually winning at it.

But to people like me the two go hand in hand - if you can't win at betting you don't truly understand racing.

And it's not a public competition, it's not about being better than the next guy.

It's about winning as an individual and it's actually possible to do that with quiet dignity and quality, rather than feeling the need to denigrate others along the way.

The best punters I know never criticise anyone else - they're not interested in what anyone else does - they just quietly focus on what they're good at and accumulate wealth, while staying under the public radar.
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Those in the racing media are journalists first & foremost.
Making a profit & what one would consider a living are not the same.
Unless you have a consistently huge roi%, even to make the uk avg wage takes a big turnover of money & stake levels not everyone wants to work at.
 
I absolutely agree.

I could be wrong but I doubt if many, if any, of them consistently finish in front on their betting in any given year, let alone win an amount they could live on without their paid salary.

It's a recurring theme here and elsewhere on social media, but there is no mysticism about the people in racing journalism - I should know, I used to be one of them, albeit I left it many years ago now.

Racing journalism attracts a cross section of society - public school types, often from racing family backgrounds, suburban geeks who dreamed about getting into racing (usually as a tipster) in their youth and might first have worked for Raceform or Timeform, plus a new actual journalists and newspaper production people who might have no more than a passing interest in racing but who know how to actually put a newspaper together on a daily basis to deadline.

There is actually a naïveté about many of them - my own learning curve as a punter became steeper after I left racing journalism to work in the betting industry and steeper still when I started meeting and conversing with professional punters.

At the RP, RUK and across all racing media outlets, they're mostly "playing at it," if you've got enough people tipping enough horses, you'll have a winner to trumpet every day of the week, but there is never a lifetime P/L to be seen for any of them.

And that tells its own story.
 
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I see that Cobb guy is seeing his time out as an associate editor at the RP.

I do laugh when the RP trumpets such & such having a big priced winner last weekend or whatever but neglects to mention how many losers that is against.
 
Just to comment on a few of your points Ian.

How the hell can anyone comment on other people not understanding racing or not doing things right ???? We are all individuals and we all do our own thing. If it works for us then to hell with what anyone else says. There is no "right" or "wrong" way. We tackle things from whatever angle we choose and hope for the best. And if it works - happy days.

Regarding the racing media making a profit from punting. This was brought up a few times on my old forum and i shared my knowledge on it with them all but of course i still stick by the client confidentiality clause in my long gone contract.
Two of the most prominent RTV pundits bet fairly regularly with us and had never been in profit and still werent on the day i left. And another well known one had been betting with us for around two years towards the end of my days and he was just under £300 in front.
Just a small snippet i know but i did know of another pundit who bet with a firm that a good mate worked for and in his words, this pundit was "doing his bollocks".
This is why i used to say to all the other forum members to either ignore anything any pundit comes out with or better still, do what i do and have the tv on mute all day.

And again, you are spot on about it being an individual thing. If i have a losing bet, it doesnt make me feel any better if i find out someone else has lost a lot more than me. Similarly, if i win a grand, i dont suddenly get downhearted because i find out someone else has won £1500. I am happy when other people win. I love to see the sad excuse for bookmakers these days get walloped. And i commiserate when people lose. It happens ! It will always happen. If each and every one of us had kept a betting slip of every single bet we have had since we started punting many years ago, our losing pile would be far, far higher than our winning pile. Thats racing ! Thats gambling !

Coffee time. Have a good day all.
 
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One final comment Ian about the best punters you know and staying under the radar.
I would wager that 99.9% of people on here would never have heard of the best punter i ever came across. He doesnt have a column in a paper or a magazine. He doesnt have a tipping service or and "advisory". He doesnt do a podcast. He has never appeared on tv. And i have never seen his name mentioned on a forum.
But this bloke was something else. And not just a flash in the pan. I, and the rest of the team, dealt with him for many years and as soon as he had had his bet and we had got it away for the firm, we were piling in ourselves before the price collapsed. And it never failed to collapse.

There will obviously be plenty more around like him who i have never come across who make it pay big time but this lad would take some beating.
Just quietly doing his own thing and not giving a shit what anyone else does.
 
I remember asking my late father many moons ago if he followed any racing tipsters and if he had ever considered subscribing to a tipping service.
No effing way was his reply most racing tipsters don't know their arse from their elbow and as for paying for tips he said
"Would you buy a jigsaw puzzle and pay some clown to put it together for you?"
"No" I replied.
"The pieces are all there the enjoyment is putting them together and reaching the finished article by yourself alone"
"Remember in racing your greatest assets are your eyes not your ears - the term watch and learn should be your number one rule"
Must admit his logic has served me well.
 
For what it’s worth, I don’t keep a P/L and I’ve never bothered with spreadsheets. Punting, for me, is a natural process — I know what a good bet looks like and I know what a bad one looks like. Your money is your money.

If you’ve the luxury of a “separate betting bank,” then you probably don’t need to be betting in the first place. And keeping records just to admire them later is wasted energy.

If someone showed me a 2025 spreadsheet that says they’re €11,387.65 in profit, my only question would be: where’s the cash? If it’s not resting somewhere or in play, what’s the point of that figure — other than a bit of self-masturbation?

That time would be better spent doing the only thing that matters: finding the next good bet.

And as for tipsters keeping records — good God, what a waste of time that is. I’ve data somewhere that shows Hugh Taylor is a losing tipster if you get 10% less than the recommended price. So what’s the point of his P/L? It’s completely unattainable, like most prices at 9am when he posts. I’d like to think that some will learn from the Will Win thread that the real skill in today’s market is picking your battles. Value can appear any time of day. The days of refreshing Bet365 for the price release are dead.
 
Slim said:
For what it’s worth, I don’t keep a P/L and I’ve never bothered with spreadsheets. Punting, for me, is a natural process — I know what a good bet looks like and I know what a bad one looks like. Your money is your money.

If you’ve the luxury of a “separate betting bank,” then you probably don’t need to be betting in the first place. And keeping records just to admire them later is wasted energy.

If someone showed me a 2025 spreadsheet that says they’re €11,387.65 in profit, my only question would be: where’s the cash? If it’s not resting somewhere or in play, what’s the point of that figure — other than a bit of self-masturbation?

That time would be better spent doing the only thing that matters: finding the next good bet.

And as for tipsters keeping records — good God, what a waste of time that is. I’ve data somewhere that shows Hugh Taylor is a losing tipster if you get 10% less than the recommended price. So what’s the point of his P/L? It’s completely unattainable, like most prices at 9am when he posts. I’d like to think that some will learn from the Will Win thread that the real skill in today’s market is picking your battles. Value can appear any time of day. The days of refreshing Bet365 for the price release are dead.
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Spot on mate. And i have to say that the Hugh Taylor piece made me laugh. If your data shows that Taylor is a losing tipster if you get 10% less than the recommended price then i dread to think what percentage less many of his followers were getting. I shook my head in disbelief when it was announced that we were going to cut his prices as soon as they came out regardless of whether we had taken a bet or not. Just as the punters out there were refreshing his site constantly, so were we. And as soon as the selections came thru (i think it used to be around 9.45am) the prices were slashed. And far more than 10%. 12's into 7's, 16's into 10's etc etc were the initial type of cuts and yet still the punters played. And then they would be cut again.
Same with Pricewise. I dont know if they still put them out at 8.00 on a Friday night, Pricewise has never bothered me and i dont get on with Segal anyway. But same again. As soon as his selections were on the site they would be slashed. And many times before we had taken a single bet depending on how quick their fingers were.
And it wasnt just our firm. Plenty of others did/do the same.

P and L - Totally meaningless !!
 

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