• REGISTER NOW!! Why? Because you can't do much without having been registered!

    At the moment you have limited access to view all discussions - and most importantly, you haven't joined our community. What are you waiting for? Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join Join Talking Horses here!

Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe 2023

Impressive from the winner, it has to be said, but with Onesto (OR 122) and TSS (120) not beaten far, I wonder if the KG has indeed left its mark on Westover and, more so, Hukum.

Well done all backers of the favourite.
 
Good on you if you backed it but the life hailing the winner as a superstar? they have to be joking.

As I said beforehand it was such a bad Arc Westover who is a professional nearly horse could win it and the fact he finished 2nd says it all
 
edgt said:
Watching the races on Virgin Media 2 is a little like watching Allo Allo without the humour.
The presenters , one of whom is named Fanny speak with a French inflection, with little or no emotion.
The pedigree expert keeps fluffing his lines.
Fanny interviews the winning connections, none of whom pay her any attention.
I am waiting for one of the team to say "Listen carefully, I shall say this only once "
Click to expand...
:
Me too -my sky box has packed it in.It's different -better than listening to the ITV mob.
 
Tanlic said:
Good on you if you backed it but the life hailing the winner as a superstar? they have to be joking.

As I said beforehand it was such a bad Arc Westover who is a professional nearly horse could win it and the fact he finished 2nd says it all
Click to expand...

I still feel it was a sub-standard field but the winner won as he should and is probably much better. Physically he’s a big strong horse (albeit a little tricky in the paddock) who should be even better next year so hopefully he will stay sound and in training having only run this year.
 
edgt said:
Sub standard my arse !
Final 3 furlongs 33.06 sec, faster than Dancing Brave.
Give the horse a break please.
Click to expand...

This is exactly why I want to see the sectionals.

Those final three furlongs would appear to support the view that it wasn't a fast-run race - the sectionals might tell us otherwise - and the jockeys were reporting that the ground was fast. It's not that often you get fast ground on Arc day.

It's entirely possible the sectionals will tell us the winner deserves a further mark-up for winning despite the way the race panned out.

But the bottom line is that beating Onesto and Through Seven Seas fairly narrowly, albeit with plenty in hand, would be grounds for pegging back raw form ratings.
 
edgt said:
Sub standard my arse !
Final 3 furlongs 33.06 sec, faster than Dancing Brave.
Give the horse a break please.
Click to expand...

I’m not criticising the quality of the winner who I think is a very decent horse. I just don’t think it was a vintage field, that’s all. Nothing at all to do with his ability and he had an excellent turn of foot when it mattered as is so often the case in French races.
 
Tanlic said:
Good on you if you backed it but the life hailing the winner as a superstar? they have to be joking.

As I said beforehand it was such a bad Arc Westover who is a professional nearly horse could win it and the fact he finished 2nd says it all
Click to expand...
Behave yourself, winnar's a high class3yo,and Westover ran a blinder, reversing KG form with Hukum by close on 6l on this kinder ground.
 
edgt said:
Sub standard my arse !
Final 3 furlongs 33.06 sec, faster than Dancing Brave.
Give the horse a break please.
Click to expand...
Do you know how many horses ran faster times than Arkle in the Gold Cup. :blink: Zarkava was slightly faster from the 3 marker than todays winner............all meaningless.

You have to look at what was placed the 2nd and 3rd have won nothing between them and neither had the rest
 
Last edited:
reet hard said:
Behave yourself, winnar's a high class3yo,and Westover ran a blinder, reversing KG form with Hukum by close on 6l on this kinder ground.
Click to expand...

You behave yourself. Almost to a man people were saying it was a poor renewal.

You using Hukum as back up your post is just dumb.

6 other horse all beat Hukum home which using your logic all of them would have beaten him in the King George.
 
Westover is precisely the type of horse to rate others off.
Runner up in four Group1s this year from March to October , he ties in the best 12 furlong form available.
That he is a dual Group1 winner himself hardly qualifies him a bridesmaid.
Onesto ran a good fourth on season debut over a mile, most likely bounced at Leopardstown and this race was his target all year.
Proven Group 1 when runner up to Luxembourg last year he is typical of placed Arc horses through the years viz Apple Tree, Card King Swain Apple Tree, Cherry Mix and such.
The Japanese horse was close enough to prove his run against Equinox was no fluke.
Continuous ran commendably given the St Leger was only 15 days ago.
Winning time 2m 25.5 is not to be sniffed at by anyone, even Arkle
 
Tanlic said:
You behave yourself. Almost to a man people were saying it was a poor renewal.

You using Hukum as back up your post is just dumb.

6 other horse all beat Hukum home which using your logic all of them would have beaten him in the King George.
Click to expand...
And using your twisted logic makes Westover a piece better than the number of gp1 horses behind him.:lol:
 
Last edited:
I thought he was very impressive yesterday with loads of improvement to come.Impossible to knock the performance.
 
I was amazed to read that only half a length separated Group 1 winners Bay Bridge, Sisfahan, Feed The Flame, Hukum, Simca Mille and Fantastic Moon.
They were beaten 6 lengths by the winner.
Did they all under perform ?
By how much ?
 
edgt said:
I was amazed to read that only half a length separated Group 1 winners Bay Bridge, Sisfahan, Feed The Flame, Hukum, Simca Mille and Fantastic Moon.
They were beaten 6 lengths by the winner.
Did they all under perform ?
By how much ?
Click to expand...

ORs:

Bay Bridge 121 (10f)
Sisfahan 114
Feed The Flame 116
Hukum 128
Simca Mille 117
Fantastic Moon 118

Fair to assume, I think, Hukum hasn't run his race.

Average the others: 117 (not convinced Bay Bridge stayed myself)

6 lengths = 9lbs

=> Ace Impact 126 (probably about right) plus, probably, a sectional markup.

Good G1 level but hardly superstar stuff.

Young enough to keep improving plenty, though.
 
Desert Orchid said:
ORs:

Bay Bridge 121 (10f)
Sisfahan 114
Feed The Flame 116
Hukum 128
Simca Mille 117
Fantastic Moon 118


Average the others: 117 (not convinced Bay Bridge stayed myself)

6 lengths = 9lbs

=> Ace Impact 126 (probably about right) plus, probably, a sectional markup.

Good G1 level but hardly superstar stuff.
Click to expand...

Westover's OR is 127 so are they saying he ran below form?

The clump that finished together yeah Bay Bridge looked like a non stayer and of course you should factor in **** rides and poor draws
 
I don't think it's set in stone.

The KG form could be over-rated.

These were my figures going into the race:

[TABLE="width: 377"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]Horse
[/TD]
[TD]MON
[/TD]
[TD]Notes
[/TD]
[TD]RPR
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Hukum
[/TD]
[TD]127
[/TD]
[TD]+?
[/TD]
[TD]130
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Pyledriver
[/TD]
[TD]127
[/TD]
[TD]?
[/TD]
[TD]130
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Emily Upjohn
[/TD]
[TD]127
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]131
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Westover
[/TD]
[TD]124
[/TD]
[TD]p?
[/TD]
[TD]129
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Luxembourg
[/TD]
[TD]123
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]129
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Auguste Rodin
[/TD]
[TD]123
[/TD]
[TD]p
[/TD]
[TD]129
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] King Of Steel
[/TD]
[TD]120
[/TD]
[TD]p
[/TD]
[TD]127
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Deauville Legend
[/TD]
[TD]118
[/TD]
[TD]p?
[/TD]
[TD]123
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Hamish
[/TD]
[TD]117
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]126
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Bolshoi Ballet
[/TD]
[TD]116
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]118
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] Point Lonsdale
[/TD]
[TD]113
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]121
[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]


I had a good bet on Hukum because I thought it could maybe hit 130 but the others couldn't but maybe the form isn't as good as I rated it. The handicapper and RPRs, etc, obviously thought highly of the form too but maybe the figures need revising.

I'm firmly of the belief that Hukum didn't run its race. I also thought there was the chance the KG could have got to both him and Westover. Maybe there was an element of that at play.

We might just have to wait and see.
 
I dunno DO, Pyledriver and King of Steel give it a solid look imo. I do like the latter for the Champion Stakes at this stage.
 
I think it was Luke who mentioned Bay Bridge's over keeness.. Moving his head about. He did that in the Arc aswell.

No chance of the horse running his best race when he was keen like that. A bit like me trying to ride a bike at top speed when constantly looking to my left and right. I'm no horseman but even I can see that.

He is a bit too old to be getting taught not to do that now too.
 
Last edited:
The assistant trainer, James Savage, is on record now saying after last Sunday. "He was only beaten six lengths by a very, very smart horse and we also just felt he maybe didn’t give himself enough of a chance in the early and mid part of the race where he always just doing too much."

Whether that can called keeness I don't know, but there you go.
 
Last edited:
Simon Rowlands has done his sectional analysis.

Sectional Spotlight | At The Races

If I'm reading it wrong I'd like to think he could come on here and set me/us all straight, if such a thing is possible given the vagaries and variables involved in horseracing, but it looks like he saying it was a substandard race going by the ratings given, with the winner requiring a 5lbs upgrade to bring him up to 127.
 

Recent Blog Posts

Back
Top