Radio 5s three bets horses of all time

I loved STS and he will always be a fav of mine, but there is always that slight nagging doubt that he dominated not quite a vintage year. DB certainly had the honour of that great arc win

would agree with most here that Frankel has to be taken to destroy almost anything but as Gareth says, the sheer achievement of the Brigadier is incredible. And there is little doubt he was up against a truly great bunch of horses

God i would have loved to have seen him.
 
Sorry if this is all too well known but the Brigadier raced 5 times in 9 weeks.

Now thats class...
 
Should really hand the reins over to desert orchid here who has a blow up Brigadier for lonely nights. But yes...this is good isnt it?


The following year, Brigadier Gerard extended his unbeaten run to fifteen. In spring he won the one mile Lockinge Stakes and the ten furlong Westbury Stakes in which he conceded fourteen punds to the runner-up Ballyhot. At Royal Ascot he won the Prince of Wales's Stakes by five lengths from Steel Pulse, setting a new course record. In the Eclipse Stakes at Sandown Park, on unfavourably soft ground, he won by a length from Gold Rod. In July he moved up to one and half miles for the first time in the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes at Ascot.
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It is but only three of them were Group1's by my reckoning.

To be honest though I was born a long time after he was running so it's difficult to know the state of racing at the time and therefore compare him with Frankel. The only measure I really have is Timeform who have been at it forever and a day and they have Frankel top and he's the best I've seen....

STS was a much better looking animal and I believe will be the better stallion but Frankel definitely has more ability.
 
I know Shergar has been mentioned a lot in discussions about the greatest racehorse and from the video footage of his victories as a 3yo he does look very impressive. However, I don't think he was any better than two horses who came along when I first got into horse racing, Nashwan (1989) & Generous (1991). The criticism that was levelled at both of them was the fact that they didn't achieve anything after their respective King George victories but neither did Shergar. I'd say Generous' King George victory was at least as impressive as anything Shergar did and that was off the back of defeating the brilliant Suave Dancer in the Irish Derby. As for Nashwan, winning the Guineas, Derby, Eclipse & King George was a really fabulous achievement. I don't think we'll ever see another horse attempt to win those 4 races back to back again because of how tough a task it is to achieve.

Frankel is the best I've seen and he deserves his place at least alongside the likes of Brigadier Gerard, Sea Bird II, Mill Reef & Dancing Brave.

Sea the Stars on the other hand I never really rated quite as high as others even though I know what he achieved was very impressive. With Frankel I think he'd beat any horse I've seen from 6f to 1m 2f, I believe Dayjur would beat him at 5f. However I don't feel the same way about STS. I'd fancy Generous, Peintre Celebre & Montjeu to beat over 1m 4f. Over 1m 2f Nashwan was every bit as good as STS imo and I think both Frankel & Dubai Millennium would beat him over that distance.
 
Nijinsky is constantly underrated due to his Arc defeat . The combination of ringworm and being rushed for the Triple Crown did for him . The Nijinsky of King George day would have won the Arc in a canter ( on form lines with Gyr and Sassafras) and be rated above Dancing Brave - a horse that failed to win the Derby and scraped home in the King George from a rallying Shardari . His Arc performance was magnificent but no greater than Nijinsky's KG canter .
 
Sea The Stars will also be underrated due to his running style. I went to see him at York and he was the most perfect racehorse I have ever seen. Who know what he might have achieved with the right horse to run down ?

Frankel is no where near as good looking but is a stunning physical type - a one off freak as Arkle was over jumps .He is undoubtedly the best horse I have ever seen .
 
Arazi said:
I know Shergar has been mentioned a lot in discussions about the greatest racehorse and from the video footage of his victories as a 3yo he does look very impressive. However, I don't think he was any better than two horses who came along when I first got into horse racing, Nashwan (1989) & Generous (1991). The criticism that was levelled at both of them was the fact that they didn't achieve anything after their respective King George victories but neither did Shergar. I'd say Generous' King George victory was at least as impressive as anything Shergar did and that was off the back of defeating the brilliant Suave Dancer in the Irish Derby. As for Nashwan, winning the Guineas, Derby, Eclipse & King George was a really fabulous achievement. I don't think we'll ever see another horse attempt to win those 4 races back to back again because of how tough a task it is to achieve.

Frankel is the best I've seen and he deserves his place at least alongside the likes of Brigadier Gerard, Sea Bird II, Mill Reef & Dancing Brave.

Sea the Stars on the other hand I never really rated quite as high as others even though I know what he achieved was very impressive. With Frankel I think he'd beat any horse I've seen from 6f to 1m 2f, I believe Dayjur would beat him at 5f. However I don't feel the same way about STS. I'd fancy Generous, Peintre Celebre & Montjeu to beat over 1m 4f. Over 1m 2f Nashwan was every bit as good as STS imo and I think both Frankel & Dubai Millennium would beat him over that distance.
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Mick Kinane clearly does not agree with you about Montjeu. I suspect STS would have beaten all those you refer to in your third paragraph bar Frankel .

Shergar was breathtaking in the Derby and Irish Derby - Swinburn later admitted that he had overdone it in first three races at three which meant he was over the top by the Leger .
 
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Ardross said:
The Nijinsky of King George day would have won the Arc in a canter ( on form lines with Gyr and Sassafras) and be rated above Dancing Brave
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Aye, and possibly Mill Reef and the Brigadier - he was pure poetry in the KG, but subsequently downgraded for finishing behind horses he would have eaten in his pomp.
 
Bar the Bull said:
I realise that Sea Bird was a top horse, but could it be argued that he failed to show the sustained brilliance of say Frankel, Brigadier Gerard or Mill Reef? Not saying he should be excluded from the top 3, but maybe it is a reason to do so.
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Go to Youtube and search for his Derby and Arc. He looked like a different species to the others (who were proper G1 horses too).
 
We all wondered that An, at one point a race between the two looked likely, but it never happened. I wanted to say that I agree that Montjeu would have beaten Sea The Stars in my opinion.
 
It would have been some race. Both at their best were deeply impressive. If I get some time, I might dig out the old books and see what my figures were.
 
Sea the Stars, Frankel and Brigadier Gerard would be my three.

Peintre Celebre and Montjue would come close too, I'd regard both as better than Dancing Brave.

I've always felt Shergar was a great horse in a poor enough year, while I was never convinced by Dubai Millennium.

Ribot and Sea Bird unfortunately were before my time.
 
its worth mentioning that Secretariat's best Beyer was calculated a later date at being 139..to convert to Timeform rating add 12lb.

So Secretariat is actually the highest rated horse of all time on 151
 
EC1 said:
its worth mentioning that Secretariat's best Beyer was calculated a later date at being 139..to convert to Timeform rating add 12lb.

So Secretariat is actually the highest rated horse of all time on 151
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We're talking European horses though, are we not?

Secretariat is, to my mind at least, the greatest racehorse to have looked through a bridle.
 
Visually secretariat was something else.... Frankel would have thumped him over a mile but the reverse would be true at a mile and a half. Both great horses.
 
Falbrav deserves a mention amongst the greats for what he did in 2003
Prix d Ispahan 1st
Prince Of Wales
Eclipse 1st
King George (questionable ride)
Juddmonte International 1st
Irish Champion 2nd (questionable ride)
QE2 1st
Breeders Cup turf 3rd (questionable ride)
Hong Kong 1st
Had those QR races been converted he had a season not seen since Bregadier G.
His ratings may not pass muster but his presence,power and attitude more than make up the balance . All he needed was a big race jockey as Hong Kong showed imo.
 
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