Rip Van Winkle

Euronymous

Euronymous

Senior Jockey
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With all due respect to O'Brien who knows more about training racehorses than I'll ever know - if Rip is the best horse he's ever had then I'm a Dutchman.

I could name at least 8 who are better than Rip.
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Irish Stamp posted this on TRF. I was gonna challenge him to name them on there but for some reason I can't quote his post.

Galileo and Hawk Wing are the only animals I could say were better or as good as Rip.

Come on Martin, name that tune in 8.
 
Am I right in thinking that Rip van Winkle's current RPR of 132 is matched only by Galileo for Aiden O'Brien trained three year olds.

I can't check this as I didn't pay the membership.
 
Stravinsky
Mozart
Galileo
Giant's Causeway
Rock of Gibraltar
Yeats
Dylan Thomas
George Washington
High Chaparall

Would all have claims in terms of a combination of ability and achievement. And in pure terms of achievement, Johannesburg, Peeping Fawn maybe even Duke of Marmalade.
 
Giants Causeway
Rock of Gibraltar
Galileo
High Chapparal
Yeats
Istabraq
Stravinsky
Mozart

It's pretty much Bar's list really though I'd possibly add in George Washington, Peeping Fawn, Johannesburg and Dylan Thomas.

If it's any consolation he's in the top 5 Milers that O'Briens trained IMO
 
I wouldn't be too quick to knock Rip Van Winkle, I found out something interesting last night.
 
If you're talking about (and i can't remember where i picked it from)...

"If he hadn't a few issues with his feet, he'd have been a complete superstar this year but we think he's a very good horse," O'Brien added.
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Is that not firstly a recognition by the trainer that he is merely a very good horse and not a superstar (or one of the best he ever trained - given the Coolmore marketing machine's penchant for calling anything half decent a superstar).

Secondly whether or not he had sore feet is irrelevant this year. Could have, would have, should have. Maybe if he stays in training and gets a clear run he might make a Duke of Marmaladesque improvement and we can then laud him as a superstar.
 
Irish Stamp said:
Giants Causeway
Rock of Gibraltar
Galileo
High Chapparal
Yeats
Istabraq
Stravinsky
Mozart
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If I attempted a list of 8 Man Utd players who were better than George Best I could make it look more convincing than this lame effort.

Istabraq and Yeats??:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


RVW was beaten narrowly by one of the greatest horses of the last twenty years in the Eclipse with the King George winner demolished in third.
Mozart won the Jersey Stakes. I could go on.
 
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He also convincingly won the July Cup and Nunthorpe as a 3 year old, earning an RPR of 130 in the former; not bad for a 3 year old!
 
Yeats is not a great horse; he is a very good one who was moved to Cup races due to the unlikelihood of him being able to consistently do well over 1m4. It's been a fantastic training performance to win 3 Gold Cups but that shouldn't be confused with saying he's a better horse than one like Rip Van Winkle. There is little or no competition at marathon distances at present (no Westerner, for example).
 
Coolmore and O'Brien have a long history of telling all and sundry that the horse they judge to be their best 3yo is "Possible the best horse I've ever trained/ridden" etc. and "has the speed for the July Cup".

Rip has won just 3 of 7 starts - including being beaten by the likes of Intense Focus, Masterofthehorse, Shaweel and Ashram. I doubt we'd see High Chapparal lose to Masterofthehorse at 12f or 10f or Mozart and Stravinsky losing to Shaweel and Ashram at 7f.

I don't doubt that Rip's past two runs have been top class but I wouldn't rate him as being better than any of those in the above list - all of whom absolutely dominated their generation (much the way STS is doing this year) or who ran and were/are winning at the top level over a prolonged period of time.
 
Im not entirely sure that the Rocks form stands up as well as RVW's too. On the other hand, RVW was beaten reasonably comfortably in the eciplse and beat a KGV winner running well short of his optimum distance (and probably not at best either)
 
I would very much doubt that anyone here (or elsewhere really) would take AOB's comments about RVW at face value. We are well past that stage.
 
If AOB seriously believes that RVW is the best horse he's had (or whatever he's supposed to have said) then what's the point in F&G turning up on Saturday. Alright you could say his losing distances to STS are decreasing, but it's still three - nil, and it's not as if STS was the only horse that beat RVW either in some of those races
 
Irish Stamp said:
Rip has won just 3 of 7 starts - including being beaten by the likes of Intense Focus, Masterofthehorse, Shaweel and Ashram. I doubt we'd see High Chapparal lose to Masterofthehorse at 12f or 10f or Mozart and Stravinsky losing to Shaweel and Ashram at 7f.
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None of this matters (especially dredging up his 2yo form) because his very best form is better than all bar Galileo of the animals you listed.

Lots of people had made up their minds about RIP after his defeats in the Dewhurst/Guineas and Derby. I remember myself liking him to One Cool Cat after he didn't even place in the 2000. But his last two runs have been top class efforts.
 
Why is this descending into a what the trainer said thing? I didn't even mention AOB and Firefox wouldn't let me open the link to the Guardian article.
 
I don't think it's descending; it's only because the trainer quotes are where the topic originally stemmed from.
 
Euronymous said:
Why is this descending into a what the trainer said thing? I didn't even mention AOB and Firefox wouldn't let me open the link to the Guardian article.
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The article reproduced from the Guardian website for thos that cannot read it:

Rip Van Winkle may be forced to miss his next intended target in Ascot's Queen Elizabeth II Stakes, having failed to fully recover from the sporadic foot problems which have interrupted his campaign.

Trainer Aidan O'Brien warned today that the fragile colt is "not 100 per cent" and may be kept for later targets in the season, including a possible tilt at the Breeders' Cup Classic.

Rip Van Winkle had finished behind Sea The Stars on three occasions this year before returning to winning ways with a devastating victory over Group One winners Paco Boy and Ghanaati in the Sussex Stakes at Goodwood.

O'Brien today hailed the colt as "the most brilliant horse we ever had here", but said that his words should not be taken as an epitaph to the three-year-old's racing career and that he was hopeful he would return to the racecourse at Ascot on 26 September or, if not, soon afterwards.

"His bone and muscle strength is so very solid, but he just has this trouble with his feet," said the trainer.

"He travelled past the two-furlong pole in the Eclipse as well as any horse in that race, including Sea The Stars, but perhaps he just flattened out slightly in the last 50 yards.

"I still can't believe he managed to run at Goodwood, let alone win the race. If you'd seen him the night before, you'd have thought he couldn't possibly do it. It was an incredible performance.

"He's back in full work, but he's not 100 per cent. Some days he's real good, some days he's not very good. He's not by any means a definite runner at Ascot."

O'Brien is juggling plans with his top-class team of three-year-old colts with St James's Palace Stakes and Irish 2,000 Guineas winner Mastercraftsman today declared alongside Fame and Glory and four other stablemates for the Tattersalls Millions Irish Champion Stakes at the weekend.

The trainer said that the recent Juddmonte International runner-up is not guaranteed to join Fame and Glory in the Leopardstown line-up.

He said: "We haven't made a firm decision yet. He could go for that race and then the QEII, or the Moulin and the QEII, or just one of any of those races."

Reflecting upon Mastercraftsman's York defeat, again at the hands of Sea The Stars – the horse who has proved a bogey for his team this year, O'Brien went on: "He was a little bit heavier than he had been before. As we said to everybody, it was the first race of his autumn campaign.

"In the race Johnny said that he gave a couple of heaves and that he got tired in the last half a furlong. We're not sure if he got a mile and a quarter and just got a little tired, or whether he wants to go back to a mile. There is definitely a chance that he is a real miler, but also a chance – and I think it is more possible – that because it was his first run back and he got a little tired, that there is more to come. If we decided to run him, it would put the issue to rest."
 
"brilliant" would normally hint at a mercurial talent with a flaw. "Best" is probably somethig you can only really diagnose retrospectively anyway, but it would be more encompassing.

Ronnie O'Sullivan might the most brilliant snooker player in history, but he wouldn't be the best etc

Anyway it's a pointless argument, and it a bit of tired old record really. Stand by for another of Aidan O'Briens most most brilliant/ best/ superb (delete adjective as appropriate) next season.

Fallon says Dylan Thomas is the best horse he's ever ridden and when asked to nominate a Ballydoyle horse he'd most want to ride he comes up with Age of bloody Aquarius :blink:
 
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