Rip Van Winkle

Brilliant is often used to mean, "shows great speed". He obviously is not the "best" that Ballydoyle have had. Even just this season there are a couple as good if not better and in comparison with those before him he is down the pecking order.
 
I recognise how it's been said and what AOB has in mind when saying it, but the most brilliant (in the terms described by Warbler) would be George Washington for me.
 
Hamm said:
I recognise how it's been said and what AOB has in mind when saying it, but the most brilliant (in the terms described by Warbler) would be George Washington for me.
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Officially (and to most I'd say) it would be Hawk Wing. Although I know what you mean about GW - he had a very deep vein of ability.
 
If we're talking about a one off performance being brilliant then I'd still take most of those on the list above Rip and probably add Hawk Wing to the list too - Stravinsky's July Cup, Mozart's Nunthorpe, Istabraq's various Champion Hurdles are all IMO far better than beating Paco Boy at 1m having had first run on him and had the run of the race and a below form Ghanaati.

As for his previous run it was great to see him finish so close to Sea The Stars but the third is top class over 12f but distinctly average (for a G1 horse) at 10f.

It's Aidan O'Brien who's said he's the best they've ever had but none of his performances support this, it's O'Brien who's amazed he managed to win a race at Goodwood (attempting to add more weight to how good a performance it is), it was also O'Brien who thought he could win the Guineas at 90% fitness and he would be better at 12f and he who thought he'd win the Dewhurst too.
 
Irish Stamp said:
far better than beating Paco Boy at 1m having had first run on him and had the run of the race and a below form Ghanaati.

As for his previous run it was great to see him finish so close to Sea The Stars but the third is top class over 12f but distinctly average (for a G1 horse) at 10f.
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This supposed yawning casm of difference between Conduit's form at 10f and 12f is the most ridiculous theme of this flat season. There is 2/3lbs TOPS between his best efforts at either trip.

Ghanatti wasn't below form - thats's how good she is, and RIP would have destroyed PB no matter how the race was run.


Mozart beat Nuclear Debate by 2 lengths in the Nunthorpe. Big fecking deal.
 
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Nuclear Debate had won the previous years renewal for the record.

Rip got first run on the pair of them - he was tucked in behind his pacemaker (who went off a million miles an hour). Great tactics from Ballydoyle as it made the race seem like a 10f event when his opponents (with the possible exception of the filly) were out and out milers.
 
Irish Stamp said:
Nuclear Debate had won the previous years renewal for the record.

Rip got first run on the pair of them - he was tucked in behind his pacemaker (who went off a million miles an hour). Great tactics from Ballydoyle as it made the race seem like a 10f event when his opponents (with the possible exception of the filly) were out and out milers.
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Whatever about the merits of the opposition...I find it hard to believe that a mile race on fast ground at Goodwood could ever be turned into the equivalent test of a 10 furlong race.
 
It depends how fast they go for the first 5f or so. I'd find it hard to believe they'd go that fast early on in any other race other than a 5 or 6f race. Malibu Bay went off lightning quick and IMO the only way anything was ever going to come from off the pace to challenge Rip was if it stayed further.

The quote from Richard Hills about Ghanaati (though it doesn't mention any injury she didn't give her running) “She looked well and she got a nice position in the race and travelled well initially but when I asked her to pick up she did not respond today. I can only put it down to the fact that the magic she has wasn’t there. "
 
Conduit needed every inch of the KGV race. Its ridiculous to rate this leger winners performance over 10f as being close to his best.
 
In the Guardian article AOB calls Rip not the best but the "most brilliant horse we've had". I don't think you could claim to find eight "more brilliant" ones - but maybe a few.

Let's hope that Rip's career will last long enough to find out that bit more. I wonder if running him in the Sussex when his foot had been sore the day before was such a good idea. I know Coolmore were desperate for a G1 win with him, but from what AOB was quoted as saying in the Guardian article, although Rip's in full work, he has been training somewhat inconsistently. Feeling his foot, or 'remembering' how it hurts after he races?

On another note, it seems to have been folly to have run him in the Derby. I think that was a huge mistake with him as well as with Hawk Wing, and it of course seems to have dictated the highly criticized pace of the race.
 
Sorry, folks, to have duplicated some of the above. When I wrote the last post, I was somehow blind to the last page of this thread. Oh, dear, a senior moment!?!? :o:o
 
SteveM said:
Officially (and to most I'd say) it would be Hawk Wing. Although I know what you mean about GW - he had a very deep vein of ability.
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I will never forget seeing him at Sandown before the Eclipse, especially the moment when he walked from the saddling enclosure to the parade ring; I was stood by the entrance to the parade ring when he walked by, and whilst it's usually people looking at the horses, many felt it was the horse examining the people. An immense aura. It may sound an exaggeration, but it was unforgettable.
 
The brilliant performances that stand in my memory are:

Stravinsky's July Cup
Johannesburg's Breeders' Cup
Hawk Wing's Lockinge
Yeats' last Gold Cup (why can't stayers be brilliant?)
Galileo's Derby

Rip van Winkle has not put in a performance yet that would get into that Top 5.
 
Personally, at this point in time I'd regard Galileo, Rock of Gibraltar, Giant's Causeway and Dylan Thomas all ahead of Rip van Winkle and I'm a big fan of his. He needs another good win to justify consideration as the best in my view.
 
No one's mentioned High Chaparral, who was another tremendously good horse and head and shoulders above RVW. I think people are taking "most brilliant" too literally. O'Brien will be referring to something akin to ability to quicken/latent talent.
 
Hamm said:
I will never forget seeing him at Sandown before the Eclipse, especially the moment when he walked from the saddling enclosure to the parade ring; I was stood by the entrance to the parade ring when he walked by, and whilst it's usually people looking at the horses, many felt it was the horse examining the people. An immense aura. It may sound an exaggeration, but it was unforgettable.
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I know just what you mean. He gave you a real spooky feel. Great presence like a prize-fighter. He'd fix you in the eye. Dancing Brave gave off something of the same. The Devil's coach horse waiting to savage the opposition.
 
I think it's a non-issue.

The English language is laced with no end of adjectives O'Brien could apply to any one of his horses in glowing terms. The most 'stunning' the most 'incredible' the most 'striking' the 'toughest' the 'cleverest'. He's paid by his employers to do the whole gamut of things for them, part of that is to talk up the horses ability with the view to a career after racing etc Having said that, the horse still has to back it up on the track of course
 
People are still generally underestimating RVW's last two runs. They were very high class. I'd contend that the likes of Rock Of Gibraltar, Giants Causeway and several others mentioned failed to post ratings to match RVW's last two.

Yeats has been a brilliant Gold Cup winner but measured purely in terms of form he's probably not any better than most of the other 'brilliant' Gold Cup winners. He's got very little in the way of genuine G1 opposition at 2½ miles.
 
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