Should the National change... again?

Desert Orchid

Desert Orchid

Senior Jockey
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
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I've been following the story regarding whether changes should be made to how the field for the National is arrived at.

While I can see both sides of the debate, it seems any time something displeases someone "we need to discuss this".

Leaving aside the character-changing physical alterations to the course, Phil Smith has made significant moves to attract a better-quality field. The race isn't what it used to be but it is probably a higher-class contest nowadays than it ever was with eye-watering prize-money.

So poor old Dr Newland is sad that Pineau De Re probably won't make the cut. Too bad, mate. You plotted it up successfully once and tried a second time and failed. Now you're plotting Band Of Blood for 2017, by the way. So you've got a beef. All of a sudden, "the public wants to see Pineau De Re [and Alvarado]."

Well I don't. They've had their shots at glory. One won and the other might have won with a remotely intelligent tactical ride. Tough titty. 'New' trainer Kerry Lee might miss out on the race with the promising Bishops Road despite doing all she can to get the horse into the race. Should her shot at glory be sacrificed on the altar of misjudged campaigns? Compare the campaigns of Pineau De Re and Alavarado - if you can call his a campaign - and Cause Of Causes for that matter, with Saint Are's.

I do understand the suggestion that no owner should have more than three runners. I suspect that would appeal to the wider public. It gives the littler owner a chance. Gigginstown and McManus entries accounted for nearly half of the Irish National field the other day. That's getting ridiculous.

I'm sure there will be strong opinions out there.
 
I think it is nice to see old faces such as Pineau De Re and Alvarado in the race, but they should be campaigned such that they are guaranteed a run - albeit the cut seems to be about 4lbs higher than is usual. As such, it should go down as an error on the part of the trainer (or the horses just aren't good enough anymore).
 
Agree. I think tough titty is about right. If previous winners and placed horses are given special treatment haven't all connections of horses that miss out because of this got a legitimate gripe (not just Kerry Lee)? If Pineau de Re is no longer good enough then so be it. If he is then Dr Newland should be reproaching himself for a poor campaign not blaming the rules


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I agree with DO. The trainers know the rules. If you want a run, run the horse properly earlier in the season and get a handicap mark which will get you a run.
 
Think the only quibble with it would be the old school International horse coming over and getting in automatically off top weight. Did Pipey have a horse running in its first chase in England one year in the National? DOnt really see the problem with JP or Gigginstown either, or Coolmore or Godophin with the classics. They invest the cash.
 
Diamond Geezer said:
https://www.timeform.com/horse-raci...al-2016-ratings-and-quality-of-runners-442016
Click to expand...

That's a very interesting article, DG. Thanks.

Phil Smith was a maths teacher. He'll know all that. One of the things he first did after taking up his post was to address the issue of slippage in NH ratings. I think this is maybe best illustrated in the difference between UK ORs and Irish ones, especially for hurdlers. I can't be certain about this, but I imagine 20 years ago a horse would be running off similar marks in both countries. I reckon if you look at the record of Irish handicap hurdlers coming over here and UK handicap hurdlers going over there, it's obvious at least one set is wrong.

I don't think the 'inflationary' ratings are that, just because they have risen. I think it is a long-term correction of a problem.

I'm not in love with how things are, but I'm open to persuasion.
 
Thinking this isnt sarcasm

Top of my head,
The next four home to Sea The Stars were trained by Aidan O'Brien.
Ruler of the World beat four other O'Brien horses I think.
Aidan O'Brien's Quality beat Legatissimo in the Oaks last year.
 
in 2002, 2007, 2010, 2011, and 2014 Coolmore had the first three home in the irish derby.
 
Tricky Dicky had the first 5 home in the Gold Cup what a spectacle it would be to see 5 JP horses fill the first 5 places in the national.....they should leave things as they are on that score.


T
 
HawkWing said:
Thinking this isnt sarcasm

Top of my head,
The next four home to Sea The Stars were trained by Aidan O'Brien.
Ruler of the World beat four other O'Brien horses I think.
Aidan O'Brien's Quality beat Legatissimo in the Oaks last year.
Click to expand...

Certainly not sarcasm. I was just curious. I now see AOB ran six in STS’s Derby and you’re right about ROTW. The Oaks isn’t an issue with just two runners.

HawkWing said:
in 2002, 2007, 2010, 2011, and 2014 Coolmore had the first three home in the irish derby.
Click to expand...

True but were these the only three entries? (I don’t know.)

Tanlic said:
Tricky Dicky had the first 5 home in the Gold Cup what a spectacle it would be to see 5 JP horses fill the first 5 places in the national.....they should leave things as they are on that score.
Click to expand...

Yes. They said it was a feat that will never be repeated. If Mullins and Nicholls can’t get five to the race it won’t.

Should it be one rule for Graded/Group races and another for handicaps? Should it only apply to handicaps worth, say, £100k and more?

The thing about the jumps compared with the Flat, though, is that it markets itself as the sport for the ordinary person whereas the Flat is “the sport of kings”.

Should that matter?
 
I think any reductions in how many entried/runners you can have would be damaging to racing. WPM has very often 6 to 10 entries in races which cost money.

Restrict owners or even worse trainers and who pays as fees would have to go up.not a good idea if done overall
 
In the old days finishing in the first four in any race over Grand National fences qualified and pretty much guaranteed you a GN run; hence Barony Fort got into 77 race after he was a bad last of four finishers in 76 Foxhunters Chase there but made his own history with Charlotte Brew riding.
Seeing the old warriors The Pilgarlic etc run the race year in year out was one of the treats of the specialist for specialist horses.
Part of me is sorry to see that go as some horses come alive on Spring ground with the crowds and excitement that is so different to the rest of the season's fare.
I suppose that is another example of "progress ".
 
Desert Orchid said:
True but were these the only three entries? (I don’t know.)
Click to expand...

What point would it prove if the magic number of three is crossed?
You asked how many times Coolmore or Godolphin ran more than three in a classic as it it was a rarity. Think Australia's Derby as well they ran several. Wouldnt be surprised if the Irish 2000 guineas would follow a similar pattern to the Irish Derby. Not sure what more is to be gained by researching other than to say that it happens quite regularly.
 
Desert Orchid said:
True but were these the only three entries? (I don’t know.)
Click to expand...

I don't know either, but irrelevant surely. Three is hell of a lot when you consider that a race like the Irish Derby probably has about 10 runners on average, not 40. That would usually be 25-35% of runners for the same owner/group of owners. I personally have no issue with that. They are just reaping the benefits of what they put in, and whatever one may think of Coolmore, they've done a brilliant job of helping maintain quite a few Irish races at Group 1 status. Imposing any sort of limits will just see a lot of them horses heading to France, weakening many of the UK/Irish showpieces.
 
While I fully agree with the sentiments a part of me does question whether it's necessarily a good thing to have the race attract a higher quality of runner.

The appeal of this race has largely been down to moments like Crisp attempting to give Red Rum 2st and Earth Summit and Suny Bay pulling clear of the remainder in atrocious ground with 23lb separating them.

I didn't/don't see the harm in having it as a race that offers the 130+ horse and connections their genuine day in the sun. At this rate it'll be nothing more than an extended distance G1 conditions race and to the global audience who tune in do you think more than .001% of them would know that the second home had won the Cheltenham Gold Cup the previous month ?.

Of course not, they wouldn't know their Garrison Savannahs from their Auroras Encore and the quality of the horses was never the reason it became as popular as it did.
 
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JP and Gigginstown buy many horses from "ordinary" breeders/point-to-point and often leave them with "ordinary man" trainers. Not sure if Pat Doyle or Liam Burke ever trained a National horse or if Tom Costello ever train one back in the great old days.

Interestingly, looked at the trainers of JPs entries - Enda Bolger, Martin Brassil, Tony Martin, Charlie Longsden, David Bridgwater, and of course JJ O'Neill. All bar one would be classed as a smaller trainer.
 
HawkWing said:
JP and Gigginstown buy many horses from "ordinary" breeders/point-to-point and often leave them with "ordinary man" trainers. Not sure if Pat Doyle or Liam Burke ever trained a National horse or if Tom Costello ever train one back in the great old days.

Interestingly, looked at the trainers of JPs entries - Enda Bolger, Martin Brassil, Tony Martin, Charlie Longsden, David Bridgwater, and of course JJ O'Neill. All bar one would be classed as a smaller trainer.
Click to expand...

Tom Costello trained Churchtown Boy ( 77 runner up) and The Thinker (3rd in 89) early in their careers but most were sold on by Aintree, the former two or three weeks before his 76 run.
 
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