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The 2025 International Stakes

Just checked - I had 18/1 Birr Castle for a top three finish. That has eaten considerably into today's losses.
And I nicked a few quid by cashing out on my 160 Birr Castle on the machine at an opportune moment - you don't always have to win to win at this game.

I enjoyed the race personally - it wasn't a million miles away from panning out as I hoped.
 
Said to have been galloping into a head wind up the straight ; had the wind been behind Birr Castle it could have been real interesting. Gosden did well to get Havlin the ride on the pacemaker; check out Racing Greats; Gosden on RTV for the explanation.
Ombudsman the best horse however; looking forward to Leopardstown now.
 
Said to have been galloping into a head wind up the straight ; had the wind been behind Birr Castle it could have been real interesting. Gosden did well to get Havlin the ride on the pacemaker; check out Racing Greats; Gosden on RTV for the explanation.
Ombudsman the best horse however; looking forward to Leopardstown now.

I’m still undecided if it was a good ride or not. Rab Havlin is one of the worst jockeys in the weighing room. That’s probably why he was let go.
 
Interesting race to watch.I thought APOB was fairly relaxed in post race interviews -I could see Delacroix doing the business at Leopardstown.
 
I actually think there was a fair amount of blame deflection going on.

Blaming the pacemaker for a messy race when it was the other jockeys's decision to sit 20 lengths off a leader who, far from going a suicidal pace, was ultimately beaten only four lengths into third.

Not a good day for the yard.

But racing isn't football - a sport in which a player or manager can be said to have had a shocker, but no one for one second thinks anyone is suggesting either has gone at the game.

That kind of "you've had a shocker" criticism is verboten in racing.
 
I get it — these pacemakers make for a watch-through-your-hands job. If they let the pacemaker win, they’re all going to look ridiculous, Schneiderfreund-style stupid. But we’re talking about Group 1 races here, and they’ve been turned into a circus. If you backed the winner, well done; if you bet the pacemaker and traded, well done. But beyond that, no one can be satisfied with that race. If I were Godolphin I’d be mortified. If it happened in the Shergar Cup, everyone would lace into it.

The jockeys knew they’d pick up the pacemaker, but it ruined the race and turned it into a Tour de France chase-down-the-breakaway team game. No one dares break rank, and you end up with that shit sprint at the end. Pure and utter bollocks.

I don’t have a perfect solution, but the form of that race is heading straight into the bin, along with the Sussex and the Eclipse. Trainers and their Mafia-style organisations are obsessed with creating the illusion of an “evenly run race,” yet they do everything in their power to avoid one.

It’s no good for stallion-making, it’s no good for punters who want to believe the form, and it’s certainly no good for a top-class spectacle. It’s the equivalent of Real Madrid lining up with ten strikers in a Champions League final to guarantee plenty of shots, while forgetting they’ll ship thirty at the other end.

The kind of race that makes a mockery of the sport and insults anyone who still cares enough to bet on it.
 
It’s the equivalent of Real Madrid lining up with ten strikers in a Champions League final to guarantee plenty of shots, while forgetting they’ll ship thirty at the other end.
Another really good bit of commentary from slim, IMO, and I particularly like this analogy.

When racing is brutally compared to other sports - particularly football, IMO - racing is all-too-often held up for, and exposed as, the farce it really has become, much though I love betting on it.
 
Surely there has to be the slightest, even smallest chance a pacemaker can actually win a race.

Because if they are absolutely no threat, as in zilch threat, then no other runners should take any notice of them. And they not setting relevent or meaningful pace, they are just having a day out.

A proper pacemaker must pose some, however minute, danger of stealing it.

If I'm wrong, tell me why.

I am still trying to get my head around all this.
 
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Another really good bit of commentary from slim, IMO, and I particularly like this analogy.

When racing is brutally compared to other sports - particularly football, IMO - racing is all-too-often held up for, and exposed as, the farce it really has become, much though I love betting on it.
Yes. I took no pleasure in wanting to tell all and sundry to lay the Derby winner today. But I saw it coming.

A bit of irony, that in theory the best three year old colt in the county, gets turned over by a horse just having been castrated.

I hear the word unsatisfactory a lot these days about races. I think we better get used to it.

Take nothing away from Pride Of Arras though. He was good today. A shame he needed the chop to show it. Maybe a sign of the times...
 
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I get it — these pacemakers make for a watch-through-your-hands job. If they let the pacemaker win, they’re all going to look ridiculous, Schneiderfreund-style stupid. But we’re talking about Group 1 races here, and they’ve been turned into a circus. If you backed the winner, well done; if you bet the pacemaker and traded, well done. But beyond that, no one can be satisfied with that race. If I were Godolphin I’d be mortified. If it happened in the Shergar Cup, everyone would lace into it.

The jockeys knew they’d pick up the pacemaker, but it ruined the race and turned it into a Tour de France chase-down-the-breakaway team game. No one dares break rank, and you end up with that shit sprint at the end. Pure and utter bollocks.

I don’t have a perfect solution, but the form of that race is heading straight into the bin, along with the Sussex and the Eclipse. Trainers and their Mafia-style organisations are obsessed with creating the illusion of an “evenly run race,” yet they do everything in their power to avoid one.

It’s no good for stallion-making, it’s no good for punters who want to believe the form, and it’s certainly no good for a top-class spectacle. It’s the equivalent of Real Madrid lining up with ten strikers in a Champions League final to guarantee plenty of shots, while forgetting they’ll ship thirty at the other end.

The kind of race that makes a mockery of the sport and insults anyone who still cares enough to bet on it.
Perfect explanation and one I completely agree with. It just sits so badly with me. I want a proper race, run at a proper pace with all those who should be at the finish fighting it out, no excuses. The best horse wins.
 
Surely there has to be the slightest, even smallest chance a pacemaker can actually win a race.

Because if they are absolutely no threat, as in zilch threat, then no other runners should take any notice of them. And they not setting relevent or meaningful pace, they are just having a day out.

A proper pacemaker must pose some, however minute, danger of stealing it.

If I'm wrong, tell me why.

I am still trying to get my head around all this.
Pacemakers are nothing new in racing.

In 1975, Bustino's pacemakers in the King George were IIRC a sprinter and a miler and neither was pattern standard.

The way they were ridden in that 1m4f race they had literally no chance to win - a sprinter ridden flat out down to Swinley Bottom and a miler driven past after half a mile and a spent force himself 4f out.

Qirat was an OR 102 miler on the edge of pattern standard and Birr Castle was an OR 109 horse (that's why I thought he was worth a pop at gigantic odds given what was likely to happen) who'd been within a length of an Arc winner in his time.

These aren't the sort of horses to give a soft lead to.

Elite sport is a game of fine margins and if you don't judge it right you have a problem.

It was insanity to let a horse who gets the trip, and is as able as Birr Castle, get that far ahead and had there been no headwind in the home straight we might tonight be talking about a summer of pacemaker Group 1 shocks.
 
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I know what I’d do if I were Coolmore. I’d run five pacemakers in every race — like they did for City Of Troy at Southwell. Go absolutely lightning in every Group 1 until the whole nonsense of pacemakers is stopped.
 
Also, if you're going to run pacemakers you need jockeys with good pace judgement.

What I don't get is how hard that seems to be.

Every furlong in the world is 220 yards long. Rails appear to be of a universal size so it should be possible either to know how many strides it takes to cover a furlong or how many rail posts you need to align the stride to.

The 'Staying Alive' song in the ads for life-saving chest pumps beats out the right rhythm. There must be some song a jockey can have in his/her head that will allow him to get the horse striding in the right tempo for maximum efficiency.

And that's just some silly ideas off the top of my head. A professional jockey should have something even more accurate to allow them to judge the pace.

The pace map at RTV shows they did the right thing in not following the pace - unlike at Goodwood where Qirat was never going fast in the first half-mile - but they hung too far back and nearly got themselves beat.

One of the great things about that Grundy-Bustino race was the pace (as detailed by Ian) but the big two sat just off it. I'd love to see the sectionals for that race!

It was either the year before or the year after that Dahlia hacked up in the King George but she did so because she was held up off a fast pace and just ran past slowing rivals. It made her look brilliant on the day but she just got the best ride. (Not saying she wasn't a great racemare but that result exaggerated her ability.)
 
Also, if you're going to run pacemakers you need jockeys with good pace judgement.

Switching blame there. Both yesterday and at Goodwood with Quirat the pacemaker had done his job perfectly. Its every other Jockey who lost on those occasions whos to blame. Can you criticise Buick yesterday ? His job was to get Ombudsman to win. He did that so no matter how the race looked as a spectacle he got it right. Is that more luck than judgment ? Possibly. History will say Ombudsman won the Juddmonte.

I'd said prior to the race one horse doesn't make a pace. Trainers have always had an easy out when a horse lost they could just blame the ground too fast, too soft, too sticky. They've now found theirselves a new one well the pace of the race wasn't right too fast, too slow, muddling.

Tbh my reflection of it was it shows how much shit gets talked. Aiden was talking about Delacroix hitting sensational fractions at the end of the Eclipse soo good that no horse should be doing that and he's very very special. Yesterday the sprint finish didn't suit him. The opposite for the Gosden who horse yesterday had developed a great turn of foot and had gone from 2nd gear straight into 5th yet had blamed the slow pace In the Eclipse.

Agree with Slim that it's horrible to watch but really unsure how it gets fixed.
 
Switching blame there. Both yesterday and at Goodwood with Quirat the pacemaker had done his job perfectly. Its every other Jockey who lost on those occasions whos to blame. Can you criticise Buick yesterday ? His job was to get Ombudsman to win. He did that so no matter how the race looked as a spectacle he got it right.
So much I agree with Danny about here, but I will just focus on this.

I haven't talked about it much here, but I've been involved in football as well as racing over the years and there are so many parallels.

You can only properly assess a football manager on their results relative to their resources and the same is true of a racehorse trainer.

And in any individual football match or horse race, the only thing that actually matters is the result - the result ultimately defines the quality of how well a manager, their players, a trainer or their jockey did their jobs.

I used to have football fans come up to me at final whistle moaning about a performance and the manager's tactics, even though we'd won.

"What's the score? We got three points - the result vindicates literally everything the manager did today, you just saw the Club you support win, so I suggest you go home happy and enjoy your Saturday night," I'd reply.

The same is true in racing - Buick won the race and that's actually all that matters.

If he gets beat, sure, crucify him, but he didn't - it's a game of fine margins, a nose either way can be the difference between hero and villain, that's how it works, we surely all know this.

A bullet dodged is still a bullet dodged.

And I don't see how Havlin on Birr Castle (or Kingscote on Qirat the other day) can possibly be criticised.

They led, they aren't responsible for what the other jockeys do and they got their mounts to outrun their odds, one winning and the other finishing third.

I've only met Aidan O'Brien the once, really nice bloke, I thought, very polite and modest, but anyone who buys into this "genius" stuff about him needs to give their head a wobble.

He was a good young trainer who got picked up by a huge outfit and hasn't looked back since.

That's how elite sport - and life - works.

A tiny edge over the next person can lead to the opportunity to turn that rizla paper superiority into a gaping chasm in terms of results and wealth.

O'Brien was knee deep in blame deflection yesterday on a day when he, his jockey and his operation had a right shocker - plus O'Brien is his employer's marketing mouthpiece, bigging up every winner as the best yet and having every excuse under the Sun for getting beat.

Football managers can be like that too - in his entire managerial career I don't think the great Bill Shankly ever conceded that any Liverpool side he sent out was ever beaten on merit.

That's why I don't listen to these people (not just O'Brien, any of them) and have to smile at those who do and cut and paste their every word as if they're tablets of stone.

They got a job to do and an agenda to promote and everything they say reflects that.

Instead of using your ears to listen to them, use your eyes to independently figure out what YOU think actually happened and rejoice, not fret, if your analysis differs from the crowd.

For that way betting value lies.
 
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A tiny edge over the next person can lead to the opportunity to turn that rizla paper superiority into a gaping chasm in terms of results and wealth.

I think Paul Nicholls is a good example of this i like Paul Nicholls and think he's a great trainer. However at one time he attracted all the best horses and there was a queue to get in. Now it seems owners cant leave his yard fast enough and he's left with an ever decreasing amount of talent in his yard.

In the meantime I very much doubt his abilities as a trainer decreased from the time when he ruled the world.
 

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